{"id":398286,"date":"2019-03-06T18:20:24","date_gmt":"2019-03-06T17:20:24","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/newswire\/the-violence-elliott-abrams-supported-is-unspeakable-counterspin-interview-with-jon-schwarz-on-elliott-abrams\/"},"modified":"2019-03-06T18:20:24","modified_gmt":"2019-03-06T17:20:24","slug":"the-violence-elliott-abrams-supported-is-unspeakable-counterspin-interview-with-jon-schwarz-on-elliott-abrams","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/newswire\/the-violence-elliott-abrams-supported-is-unspeakable-counterspin-interview-with-jon-schwarz-on-elliott-abrams\/","title":{"rendered":"\u2018The Violence Elliott Abrams Supported Is Unspeakable\u2019 &#8211; CounterSpin interview with Jon Schwarz on Elliott Abrams"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><i>Janine Jackson interviewed Jonathan Schwarz about Elliott Abrams for the <a href=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/home\/tim-shorrock-on-korea-summit-jon-schwartz-on-elliott-abrams\/\">March 1, 2019, episode<\/a> of <\/i><b><i>CounterSpin<\/i><\/b><i>. This is a lightly edited transcript.<\/i><\/p>\n<div id=\"wrapperMI_0\" class=\"wrap-mjp  \" style=\"padding:5px 0px 40px 0px;margin:0px;width:100%\">\n<div class=\"Eabove-mjp\" id=\"Eabove-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"subwrap-MI\">\n<div class=\"jp-innerwrap\">\n<div class=\"innerx\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerleft\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerright\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innertab\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"interface-mjp verdana-mjp\" style=\"height:71px\" id=\"interfaceMI_0\">\n<div class=\"MI-image Himg right-mjp\" id=\"MI_image_0\" style=\"width:auto;height:71px;overflow:hidden\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"T_mp3j_0\" class=\"player-track-title left-mjp norm-mjp plain-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"bars_holder\">\n<div class=\"loadMI_mp3j\" id=\"load_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"poscolMI_mp3j\" id=\"poscol_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"posbarMI_mp3j\" id=\"posbar_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div id=\"P-Time-MI_0\" class=\"jp-play-time\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"T-Time-MI_0\" class=\"jp-total-time\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"statusMI_0\" class=\"statusMI\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"transport-MI\">\n<div class=\"play-mjp\" id=\"playpause_mp3j_0\">Play<\/div>\n<div class=\"stop-mjp\" id=\"stop_mp3j_0\">Stop<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"buttons-wrap-mjp\" id=\"buttons-wrap-mjp_0\">\n<div class=\"mp3j-popout-MI\" id=\"lpp_mp3j_0\">pop out<\/div>\n<div id=\"download_mp3j_0\" class=\"dloadmp3-MI\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"mjp-volwrap\">\n<div class=\"MIsliderVolume\" id=\"vol_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerExt1\" id=\"innerExt1_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerExt2\" id=\"innerExt2_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"Ebetween-mjp\" id=\"Ebetween-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"listwrap_mp3j\" id=\"L_mp3j_0\">\n<div class=\"wrapper-mjp\">\n<div class=\"playlist-colour\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"wrapper-mjp\">\n<ul class=\"ul-mjp darken1-mjp verdana-mjp med-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp left-mjp\" id=\"UL_mp3j_0\">\n<li><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo\">\n<div class=\"mp3j-finfo-sleeve\">\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_gif_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo-gif\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_txt_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo-txt\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"mp3j-finfo-close\" id=\"mp3j_finfo_close_0\">X<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_dlf_0\" class=\"mp3j-dlframe\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"mp3j-nosolution\" id=\"mp3j_nosolution_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"Ebelow-mjp\" id=\"Ebelow-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p>MP3jPLAYLISTS.MI_0 = [<br \/>\n\t{ name: &#8220;CounterSpin Tim Shorrock Interview &#8220;, formats: [&#8220;mp3&#8221;], mp3: &#8220;aHR0cDovL3d3dy5mYWlyLm9yZy9hdWRpby9jb3VudGVyc3Bpbi9Db3VudGVyU3BpbjE5MDMwMVNob3Jyb2NrLm1wMw==&#8221;, counterpart:&#8221;&#8221;, artist: &#8220;&#8221;, image: &#8220;true&#8221;, imgurl: &#8220;&#8221; 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 },<br \/>\n\t\t\tcssFontSize: { &#8220;title&#8221;: &#8220;16px&#8221;, &#8220;caption&#8221;: &#8220;11.2px&#8221;, &#8220;list&#8221;: &#8220;12px&#8221; },<br \/>\n\t\t\tclasses: { interface:&#8217; verdana-mjp&#8217;, title:&#8217; left-mjp norm-mjp plain-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp&#8217;, image:&#8217; Himg right-mjp&#8217;, poscol:&#8221;, ul:&#8217; darken1-mjp verdana-mjp med-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp left-mjp&#8217; }} };<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.fair.org\/audio\/counterspin\/CounterSpin190301Shorrock.mp3\"><strong>MP3 Link<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8931122\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8931122\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/03\/WaPo-Elliott-Abrams.png\" alt=\"WaPo: \u2018Someone is not being honest\u2019: Elliott Abrams, Trump\u2019s Venezuela envoy, trailed by mistrust\" width=\"350\" height=\"472\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em><strong>Washington Post<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/nation\/2019\/02\/14\/someone-is-not-being-honest-elliott-abrams-trumps-venezuela-envoy-trailed-by-mistrust\/?utm_term=.78163add14b9\">2\/14\/19<\/a>)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>Janine Jackson:<\/b> Difficult as it is to believe, there are many people for whom Elliott Abrams&#8217; <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wsj.com\/articles\/administration-taps-elliott-abrams-as-envoy-for-venezuela-11548461920\">appointment<\/a> as Donald Trump\u2019s special envoy to Venezuela is their first introduction to the man a recent <b>Washington Post <\/b><a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/nation\/2019\/02\/14\/someone-is-not-being-honest-elliott-abrams-trumps-venezuela-envoy-trailed-by-mistrust\/?utm_term=.8f274033ac90\">headline described<\/a> as &#8220;trailed by mistrust.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>Abrams&#8217; public record in Latin America and elsewhere, as an official under Ronald Reagan and George W. \u00a0Bush, ought to be central in any reporting on his current Venezuelan adventure. But it only really got on media&#8217;s front burner when Abrams&#8217; was <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=InGCmxCjaWE\">confronted<\/a> with it by Rep. Ilhan Omar in a House Foreign Affairs Committee meeting, an <a href=\"http:\/\/time.com\/5529418\/ilhan-omar-elliott-abrams-el-salvador\/\">exchange<\/a> then subsumed in media\u2019s \u201cHot Controversy of the Day\u201d framework.<\/p>\n<p>Joining us now today to talk about some of Elliott Abrams\u2019 keenly relevant and not-that-old history, is Jon Schwarz. Contributor to many outlets, he now writes for the <b>Intercept<\/b>. He joins us now by phone from Brooklyn. Welcome to <b>CounterSpin<\/b>, Jon Schwarz.<\/p>\n<p><b>Jon Schwarz:<\/b> Thank you so much for having me on to talk about this. It\u2019s an extremely grim story, but also extremely important.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>After the exchange with Representative Omar, Elliott Abrams sent a message to the <b>Washington Post<\/b> that described his role in the Reagan administration, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/world\/2019\/02\/15\/massacre-trumps-envoy-venezuela-wants-us-forget\/?utm_source=reddit.com&amp;utm_term=.ee1b88fd9122\">saying<\/a>, \u201cIt\u2019s a remarkable record of support for Latin democracy, of which Representative Omar is obviously unaware and in which she is uninterested.\u201d And he added, \u201cThat was clear from her conduct, which constituted attacking rather than questioning a witness.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The idea that Omar was speaking from <i>ignorance\u2014<\/i>set aside her purported incivility as the conduct with which we should be concerned\u2014but the idea that she was factually wrong, that she doesn\u2019t know her history; for reporters to let that stand, as if to say, \u201cwho\u2019s right depends on who you like\u201d\u2014it feels like an abdication of duty.<\/p>\n<p>So I wanted to ask you to talk about Elliott Abrams\u2019 public record, some of which you have <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/01\/30\/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup\/\">revisited<\/a> recently. We don\u2019t have time to do it all justice, but what leaps to mind when you hear Abrams tout his \u201csupport for Latin democracy\u201d?<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8931124\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8931124\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/03\/Jon-Schwarz-Profile.jpg\" alt=\"Jon Schwarz\" width=\"350\" height=\"437\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em>Jon Schwarz: &#8220;Elliott Abrams supported Latin American democracy pretty much like Jeffrey Dahmer supported all the people that he brought to his apartment.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>Yeah, well, Elliott Abrams supported Latin American democracy pretty much like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.history.com\/this-day-in-history\/cannibal-and-serial-killer-jeffrey-dahmer-is-caught\">Jeffrey Dahmer<\/a> supported all the people that he brought to his apartment. That seems like a crazy thing to say, to people who are not familiar with Abrams\u2019 history. It actually is not.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m choosing Dahmer specifically because a famous forensic anthropologist visited Guatemala to help excavate the mass graves there, \u00a0many of them from the 1980s, when Abrams was helping to support the Guatemalan government, and make sure it had all the arms and training that it needed for its military. And that anthropologist <a href=\"https:\/\/covertactionmagazine.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/CAQ48.pdf\">said<\/a> this: \u201cYou know, it\u2019s a shame that Jeffrey Dahmer never came here to Guatemala, because if he had, he would have ended up as a general.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The violence that Elliott Abrams <a href=\"http:\/\/inthesetimes.com\/article\/21758\/war-criminal-elliott-abrams-nicaragua-venezuela-maduro-trump-ilhan-omar\">supported<\/a> in Latin America during the 1980s, particularly in El Salvador and Guatemala, is unspeakable. Human beings literally do not have the words to describe this kind of thing, and all we can do is use the limited vocabulary that we do have to try to communicate it.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>Right. And I think in particular, when Omar was asking him about El Salvador, if we can start with that, because it isn\u2019t just that he <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/news\/q-and-a\/max-boot-defends-elliott-abrams-account-of-us-policy-in-el-salvador\">described<\/a> what happened in Salvador as, I think his words were a \u201cfabulous achievement,\u201d I\u2019m not sure, but just that for years afterwards, he continued to deny that any horrors had taken place, right?<\/p>\n<p><b>JS:<\/b> That\u2019s right. Elliott Abrams, in the early 1990s, was <a href=\"https:\/\/www.hrw.org\/legacy\/reports\/pdfs\/e\/elsalvdr\/elsalv938.pdf\">asked<\/a> about his involvement with US policy towards Central America, and El Salvador specifically. And he called what happened in El Salvador a \u201cfabulous achievement.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, here\u2019s part of the \u201cfabulous achievement.\u201d Elliott Abrams became assistant secretary of State for human rights and humanitarian affairs on December 12, 1981. Literally when he walked into his office, the Salvadoran military, which was just off of being <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cristosal.org\/el-mozote\">trained and armed<\/a> by the United States, was <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/01\/30\/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup\/\">conducting<\/a> one of the most notorious mass slaughters anywhere on Earth over the past 40 years or so.<\/p>\n<p>This took place in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2018\/05\/26\/world\/americas\/el-salvador-el-mazote-massacre.html\">El Mozote<\/a>, which is a small town near the Honduran border in the mountains of El Salvador. It was kind of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/magazine\/1972\/01\/22\/i-coverup\">My Lai<\/a> times two or three; around a thousand people were killed, men, women and children. Every woman over the age of maybe ten was raped before being murdered. It was as gruesome as pretty much anything in human history.<\/p>\n<p>So he walks into office, as the assistant secretary of State\u2014let me say this again\u2014for human rights and humanitarian affairs, and he snaps into action and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2019\/feb\/27\/trumps-special-envoy-to-venezuela-will-lie-when-needed-claims-raymond-bonner\">covers<\/a> it up.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8931127\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8931127\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/03\/Intercept-Omar-Abrams.png\" alt=\"Intercept: Rep. Ilhan Omar Went After Elliott Abrams for Lying to Congress. Then He Did It Again.\" width=\"350\" height=\"488\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em><strong>Intercept<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/02\/14\/ilhan-omar-elliott-abrams-hearing\/\">2\/14\/19<\/a>)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>I really actually want to talk about language here, because it\u2019s almost as if\u2014this stuff that you\u2019re talking about <i>is on the record<\/i>. It isn\u2019t that folks deny that these things actually happened. It\u2019s as if, \u201cYes, they happened, but you have to look at it through a particular lens.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I want to say, you almost don\u2019t have to <i>hide<\/i> this record of what Elliott Abrams did in Latin America, if you are going to at the same time say that, for example, in Venezuela, \u201cWell, we\u2019re gonna push for a coup for democracy,\u201d and you\u2019re just gonna say those words with a straight face.<\/p>\n<p>And so in some ways, the <i>lying\u2014<\/i>and you\u2019ve <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/02\/14\/ilhan-omar-elliott-abrams-hearing\/\">written<\/a> about this\u2014the <i>lying<\/i> and the PR and the massaging of the truth is as much a part of what we need to know about Elliott Abrams as what he actually supported.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS:<\/b> Yeah, just the language is remarkable. It is like someone saying, \u201cWell, I\u2019m a doctor, so I\u2019m going to shoot you in the face for your health.\u201d And the El Mozote story, this is very much a media story. One of the things that Abrams and his compatriots in the Reagan administration did, when Raymond Bonner\u2014Raymond Bonner was a <b>New York Times<\/b> reporter\u2014got into El Mozote, he <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/1982\/01\/27\/world\/massacre-of-hundreds-reported-in-salvador-village.html\">broke<\/a> the story of what had happened there six or seven weeks afterward.<\/p>\n<p>And the Reagan administration did everything they possibly could to try to knock the story down. They attacked Raymond Bonner personally. And they succeeded. They went straight to his editors at the <b>New York Times <\/b>and they got him pulled off of his assignment in Central America, brought back to New York, put on a desk that was a clear demotion. And it really just derailed his career, frankly, for decades.<\/p>\n<p>And so that\u2019s what happens when you report the truth in the <b>New York Times<\/b>: If you\u2019re going up against Elliott Abrams, you\u2019re going to be punished, and punished severely.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>And that record of his <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jacobinmag.com\/2019\/02\/the-tragic-life-of-the-war-criminal-elliott-abrams\">involvement<\/a> with the press is part of his record, and for some folks, as you\u2019ve noted, it isn\u2019t just that he&#8230;well, I mean, it <i>is<\/i> that he attacks them, but it\u2019s also that he kind of <i>breaks<\/i> \u2019em, you know. Reporters that are trying to rely on him as a source and trying to report reality from areas in which he has influence, \u00a0some of them just get kind of worn down, it sounds like.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS:<\/b> Yeah, I <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/01\/30\/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup\/\">read about one<\/a> who was working for the <b>Washington Post<\/b> and had to deal with Abrams. And she later said, \u201cThey said that black was white&#8230;. Although I\u2019d used all of my professional resources, I had misled my readers.\u201d And she just found dealing with them so unbearable and exhausting that she quit to <a href=\"http:\/\/articles.latimes.com\/1992-02-02\/books\/bk-1764_1_joanne-omang\">write<\/a> novels.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> And then, I guess I have to come back to, you\u2019ve started to talk about, or you\u2019ve indicated some of the actual horrors\u2014horrors is the right word for what was done under US auspices and with US support in Salvador, in Guatemala, in\u2026.<\/p>\n<p>We could also talk about Nicaragua, for example. And let\u2019s talk about, actually, Nicaragua, because that will be another example that for many folks might be, \u201cOh wait, he has something to do with Iran\/Contra&#8230;.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But this brings us back to: Journalists are now going to be going to Abrams, quoting him as a source. And these are journalists who <i>have<\/i> to know that he has a record of lying\u2014and <i>proudly<\/i> lying\u2014to Congress about US involvement in Nicaragua.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8931036\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8931036\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/03\/Elliott-Abrams.png\" alt=\"Elliott Abrams\" width=\"350\" height=\"452\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em>Elliott Abrams (photo: State Department)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>JS:<\/b> That\u2019s right. What he\u2019s best known for, \u00a0if he\u2019s known for anything, is that he <a href=\"https:\/\/www.brown.edu\/Research\/Understanding_the_Iran_Contra_Affair\/profile-abrams.php\">pled<\/a> guilty of two counts of withholding information from Congress about the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/1987\/07\/05\/world\/eight-important-days-in-november-unraveling-the-iran-contra-affair.html\">Iran\/Contra<\/a> affair. And when this happened, everybody kind of thought, \u201cWell, that\u2019s it. You can\u2019t lie to Congress and return to the US government at some point.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s the funny thing about Elliott Abrams. He was <a href=\"https:\/\/www.politico.com\/story\/2018\/12\/24\/bush-pardons-iran-contra-felons-dec-24-1992-1072042\">pardoned<\/a> by George Bush I, as George Bush I was on his way out the door after losing to Bill Clinton in 1992. Now, he <a href=\"https:\/\/www.brown.edu\/Research\/Understanding_the_Iran_Contra_Affair\/thepardons.php\">pardoned<\/a> a whole bunch of Iran\/Contra people; one of them was Abrams, so his record was wiped clean. And that was the end of his career in the Reagan administration, but he would return later on for George W. Bush, and do pretty much the same stuff.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> Which is funny, because they thought maybe he couldn\u2019t get Senate approval, but they found a way around that.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s right. So they <a href=\"https:\/\/georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov\/news\/releases\/2001\/06\/20010628-12.html\">put<\/a> him on to National Security Council positions, again with names in his titles involving human rights and democracy.<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s kind of like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wsj.com\/articles\/john-bolton-energizes-trumps-agendaand-his-own-1542546003\">John Bolton<\/a>, who is Trump\u2019s National Security Advisor. Like, it would be very tough to get a Bolton nomination through the Senate. And so you can stick these people on the National Security Council, which does not require that kind of approval.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> And they can have enormous, enormous influence, which I think we\u2019re seeing right now. Now Abrams is being <a href=\"https:\/\/www.c-span.org\/video\/?458419-1\/special-representative-venezuela-elliott-abrams-briefs-reporters\">covered<\/a> in the context of Trump administration policy in Venezuela. And we\u2019re seeing, for example, stories about whether or not weapons might be <a href=\"https:\/\/www.independent.co.uk\/news\/world\/americas\/venezuela-border-brazil-close-maduro-colombia-guaido-foreign-aid-trump-latest-update-a8791111.html\">smuggled<\/a> in humanitarian supplies. And it\u2019s almost as if, \u201dLet\u2019s come to that as though it\u2019s a new thing,\u201d you know, with regards to Abrams.<\/p>\n<p>Missing the history is always a bad idea for media, but when it comes to Abrams, it really means missing the story.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS:<\/b> It is incredible. It is like reporting on Elvis Presley and being like, \u201cIs it possible that this fellow might like to sing some songs?\u201d Like, this is what Elliott Abrams <i>does<\/i>; of course you have to expect they\u2019re going to be smuggling arms in the humanitarian supplies. He did that in the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/1987\/08\/17\/world\/abrams-denies-wrongdoing-in-shipping-arms-to-contras.html\">past<\/a>, he\u2019s in charge now, probably that\u2019s what he has in mind.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> Nowhere along the line did he say, \u201cThat was a mistake; I\u2019m changing my ways,\u201d you know?<\/p>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>Yeah, exactly. If he were truly remorseful for what he did in the past, he would not be getting hired again.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8931129\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8931129\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/03\/Charlie-Rose-Nairn-Abrams.png\" alt=\"Allan Nairn with Elliott Abrams on Charlie Rose\" width=\"350\" height=\"204\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em>Allan Nairn with Elliott Abrams on <strong>Charlie Rose<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/charlierose.com\/videos\/18183\">3\/31\/95<\/a>)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>Let\u2019s come back to media; I wonder if I can ask you, because I do think it\u2019s the big story in some ways: In a recent piece, you <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/01\/30\/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup\/\">reminded<\/a> readers about when Elliott Abrams <a href=\"https:\/\/charlierose.com\/videos\/18183\">was<\/a> on <b>Charlie Rose<\/b> with Allan Nairn, and he kind of said, \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m about, and here\u2019s how you should deal with it.\u201d Can you remind us of that story?<\/p>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>Yes, so this was 1995. Abrams was on the <b>Charlie Rose Show<\/b> with Allan Nairn, who is one of the best and most knowledgeable reporters about US foreign policy. And Nairn <a href=\"http:\/\/www.mit.edu\/~thistle\/v9\/9.06\/8nuremberg.html\">said<\/a> that George Bush I\u2014this was, again, 1995\u2014had talked about putting Saddam Hussein on trial for crimes against humanity. And Nairn said, like, \u201cThat\u2019s a good idea, but if you\u2019re serious, you\u2019re going to have to be even-handed, and so you\u2019re going to have to prosecute people like this guy that I\u2019m on the show with, Elliott Abrams.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And Elliott Abrams found this idea preposterous, and <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/senor_pez\/status\/1088947017429192704\">chuckled<\/a> about it, and said, like, \u201cWell, you know, if you want to do that, that would mean putting all the American officials who won the Cold War in the dock.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And that actually is a pretty fair point from Abrams. It\u2019s not like he somehow <i>fooled<\/i> Ronald Reagan, that he <i>fooled<\/i> George W. Bush. I mean, they knew what he was doing. He was doing what they wanted him to do.<\/p>\n<p>And this is US foreign policy; this is what it\u2019s like. There are doves and there are hawks, \u00a0but the difference between them is not that great. And if you were going to put the hawks on trial, if you\u2019re going to be honest about it, you\u2019re going to have to put a lot of the doves there, too.<\/p>\n<p>And so, to me, this kind of stuff is always <a href=\"https:\/\/www.agathachristie.com\/stories\/murder-on-the-orient-express\">like<\/a> <i>Murder on the Orient Express,<\/i> right? So somebody ended up dead. And the question is, \u201cWell, who killed them?\u201d The story is, there are, well, I think there\u2019s 13 possible suspects on the train, 13 passengers. The answer is, they all did it.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>They all committed the crime. Abrams sees that as a very powerful defense, and it is. Like, the US foreign policy elite does not like the idea of all of them going to jail together.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>I kind of feel that elite media co-sign that line of thinking, you know? That they sort of play both sides in terms of their foreign policy coverage. \u201cThis is for grownups,\u201d you know? You just gotta accept as access to the conversation that, you know, \u201cWe kill people and we do that to protect our stuff.\u201d And then out of the other side of their mouths, they say, \u201cThis is for the babies. Don\u2019t you care about the poor babies?\u201d I mean\u2026.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>Well, why don\u2019t you care about the babies like <i>we<\/i> care about the babies?<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>Exactly. I just finally\u2026.for those of us trying to make sense of the world with media, how do you even do that? I mean, you can\u2019t rely on corporate press.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8931128\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8931128\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/03\/Tywin-Lannister.jpg\" alt=\"Tywin Lannister\" width=\"350\" height=\"502\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em>Tywin Lannister (Charles Dance) on <strong>Game of Thrones<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>I would encourage everybody to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.hbo.com\/game-of-thrones\">watch<\/a> <i>Game of Thrones<\/i>. There are a lot of great scenes in <i>Game of Thrones<\/i> which I think demonstrate how these people look at the world, particularly the <a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Tywin_Lannister\">character<\/a> of Tywin Lannister, where he\u2019s like, \u201cLook, somebody has to rule the world. Here we are. We\u2019re ruling it. Anybody who is going to run the world is going to have to do this kind of stuff, so get over it! And in the end, it\u2019s for the best, for everyone.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>And that really is how the US media see things, you know. And if you push them on how they don\u2019t really seem to care about a lot of babies on Earth, they\u2019ll retreat to that perspective, like, \u201cLook, this is just the way the world is, suck it up and deal with it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>Right. Well, I guess, finally, for those of us who don\u2019t subscribe to that, we need to find other outlets for our conversations, and other folks to include in those conversations.<\/p>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>Yeah. The good news is that we have 99 percent of humanity on our side. So hopefully, eventually, that will count for something.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ: <\/b>We\u2019ve been speaking with Jon Schwarz; you can find his work on a variety of issues on <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/\"><b>TheIntercept.com<\/b><\/a>. Jon Schwarz, thank you so much for joining us this week on <b>CounterSpin.<\/b><\/p>\n<p><b>JS: <\/b>Thank you, thank you and thank you to everybody listening. This truly is an important story, and I think that it really deserves everyone\u2019s attention.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><br \/>\nThis piece was reprinted by <a href=\"http:\/\/rinf.com\">RINF Alternative News<\/a> with permission from <a href=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/home\/the-violence-elliott-abrams-supported-is-unspeakable\/\">FAIR<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Janine Jackson interviewed Jonathan Schwarz about Elliott Abrams for the March 1, 2019, episode of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript. 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