{"id":377851,"date":"2018-09-19T20:43:58","date_gmt":"2018-09-19T19:43:58","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/newswire\/when-governments-fail-to-take-action-they-step-in\/"},"modified":"2018-09-19T20:43:58","modified_gmt":"2018-09-19T19:43:58","slug":"when-governments-fail-to-take-action-they-step-in","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/newswire\/when-governments-fail-to-take-action-they-step-in\/","title":{"rendered":"\u2018When Governments Fail to Take Action, They Step In\u2019"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><em>Janine Jackson interviewed Jamil Dakwar on the International Criminal Court for the <a href=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/home\/richard-kim-on-brett-kavanaugh-jamil-dakwar-on-john-bolton\/\">September 14, 2018, episode<\/a> of <strong>CounterSpin<\/strong>. This is a lightly edited transcript.<\/em><\/p>\n<div id=\"wrapperMI_0\" class=\"wrap-mjp  \" style=\"padding:5px 0px 40px 0px;margin:0px;width:100%\">\n<div class=\"Eabove-mjp\" id=\"Eabove-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"subwrap-MI\">\n<div class=\"jp-innerwrap\">\n<div class=\"innerx\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerleft\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerright\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innertab\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"interface-mjp verdana-mjp\" style=\"height:71px\" id=\"interfaceMI_0\">\n<div class=\"MI-image Himg right-mjp\" id=\"MI_image_0\" style=\"width:auto;height:71px;overflow:hidden\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"T_mp3j_0\" class=\"player-track-title left-mjp norm-mjp plain-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"bars_holder\">\n<div class=\"loadMI_mp3j\" id=\"load_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"poscolMI_mp3j\" id=\"poscol_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"posbarMI_mp3j\" id=\"posbar_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div id=\"P-Time-MI_0\" class=\"jp-play-time\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"T-Time-MI_0\" class=\"jp-total-time\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"statusMI_0\" class=\"statusMI\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"transport-MI\">\n<div class=\"play-mjp\" id=\"playpause_mp3j_0\">Play<\/div>\n<div class=\"stop-mjp\" id=\"stop_mp3j_0\">Stop<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"buttons-wrap-mjp\" id=\"buttons-wrap-mjp_0\">\n<div class=\"mp3j-popout-MI\" id=\"lpp_mp3j_0\">pop out<\/div>\n<div id=\"download_mp3j_0\" class=\"dloadmp3-MI\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"mjp-volwrap\">\n<div class=\"MIsliderVolume\" id=\"vol_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerExt1\" id=\"innerExt1_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerExt2\" id=\"innerExt2_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"Ebetween-mjp\" id=\"Ebetween-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"listwrap_mp3j\" id=\"L_mp3j_0\">\n<div class=\"wrapper-mjp\">\n<div class=\"playlist-colour\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"wrapper-mjp\">\n<ul class=\"ul-mjp darken1-mjp verdana-mjp med-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp left-mjp\" id=\"UL_mp3j_0\">\n<li><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo\">\n<div class=\"mp3j-finfo-sleeve\">\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_gif_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo-gif\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_txt_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo-txt\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"mp3j-finfo-close\" id=\"mp3j_finfo_close_0\">X<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_dlf_0\" class=\"mp3j-dlframe\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"mp3j-nosolution\" id=\"mp3j_nosolution_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"Ebelow-mjp\" id=\"Ebelow-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p>MP3jPLAYLISTS.MI_0 = [<br \/>\n\t{ name: &#8220;CounterSpin Jamil Dakwar Interview &#8220;, formats: [&#8220;mp3&#8221;], mp3: &#8220;aHR0cDovL3d3dy5mYWlyLm9yZy9hdWRpby9jb3VudGVyc3Bpbi9Db3VudGVyU3BpbjE4MDkxNERha3dhci5tcDM=&#8221;, counterpart:&#8221;&#8221;, artist: &#8220;&#8221;, image: &#8220;true&#8221;, imgurl: &#8220;&#8221; 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The <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/about\">International Criminal Court<\/a>, Bolton<a href=\"https:\/\/www.wsj.com\/articles\/the-hague-tiptoes-toward-u-s-soldiers-1511217136\"> wrote<\/a> last year\u2014referring to the international body founded in 1998 to prosecute war crimes\u2014should be \u201cstrangle[d]&#8230; in its cradle.\u201d This week, in a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theepochtimes.com\/speech-transcript-john-bolton-on-u-s-policy-toward-the-international-criminal-court_2656808.html\"> speech<\/a> to the Federalist Society, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.c-span.org\/video\/?451213-1\/national-security-adviser-john-bolton-addresses-federalist-society\">broadcast<\/a> by <b>C-SPAN<\/b>, Bolton <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/news\/daily-comment\/what-is-john-boltons-bully-pulpit-attack-on-the-international-criminal-court-really-about\">declared<\/a> the ICC \u201cthe founders\u2019 worst nightmare come to life\u201d and &#8220;dead to us,&#8221; an \u201coutright dangerous\u201d entity from whom the US \u201cwill use any means necessary to protect its citizens.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Yes, this is bombast\u2014typical \u201cthe US makes its own rules,\u201d \u00a0&#8220;if you aren\u2019t for us you\u2019re agin&#8217; us,\u201d \u201cdiplomacy is for suckers\u201d chest-thumping. <b>Reuters<\/b><a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/article\/us-usa-trump-icc\/trump-administration-takes-aim-at-international-criminal-court-plo-idUSKCN1LQ076\"> called<\/a> it taking a \u201ctough stance.\u201d The <b>New York Times<\/b> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2018\/09\/10\/us\/politics\/trump-plo-bolton-international-criminal-court.html\">chose<\/a> \u201cunyielding.\u201d But what should those interested in peace and justice think? And what do others around the world think, when the US declares itself officially unaccountable when it comes to the worst kinds of crimes?<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re joined now by Jamil Dakwar, director of the<a href=\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/issues\/human-rights\"> American Civil Liberties Union\u2019s Human Rights Program<\/a> and an adjunct lecturer at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He joins us by phone from here in New York City. Welcome to <b>CounterSpin<\/b>, Jamil Dakwar.<\/p>\n<p><b>Jamil Dakwar:<\/b> Thank you for having me.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8928069\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8928069\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/09\/WaPo-Bolton-ICC.png\" alt=\"WaPo:John Bolton attacked the ICC. Cooperating with it might be a better way to protect U.S. interests.\" width=\"350\" height=\"309\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em><strong>Washington Post<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/news\/monkey-cage\/wp\/2018\/09\/14\/john-bolton-attacked-the-icc-cooperating-with-it-might-be-a-better-way-to-protect-u-s-interests\/?utm_term=.416e05435ec3\">9\/14\/18<\/a>)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> The <b>Washington Post<\/b>, for its part, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/news\/monkey-cage\/wp\/2018\/09\/14\/john-bolton-attacked-the-icc-cooperating-with-it-might-be-a-better-way-to-protect-u-s-interests\/?utm_term=.f68188547747\">took issue<\/a> editorially with Bolton\u2019s threatening remarks, because the ICC is too unimportant to bother with; it\u2019s just a \u201cpersonal bugaboo,\u201d in their words\u2014which sounds kind of like another way of making his point. So what, first of all, is the role of the ICC in the world? How is it meant to function?<\/p>\n<p><b>JD:<\/b> The ICC, which was founded, as you said, in \u201998, by a treaty that was negotiated\u2014the United States was part of the negotiations, made some changes, actually, and some amendments were introduced in order to accommodate, so to speak, the United States. And the court started to function and was up to speed and running in July of 2002.<\/p>\n<p>It has now about 123 countries that ratified this treaty, called the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/romestatute20\">Rome Statute<\/a>. The United States initially signed the treaty during the Clinton administration, then the Bush administration in the early 2000s, and shortly after 9\/11, <a href=\"http:\/\/www.cnn.com\/2002\/US\/05\/06\/court.letter.text\/index.html\">announced<\/a> to the world that they are not interested in ratifying the treaty, and just left it there.<\/p>\n<p>The court is really one of the most important judicial bodies that is in charge of investigating and prosecuting gross violations of international law, particularly war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. Most recently, the member states that ratified the statute, the Rome Statute, this treaty, added the crime of aggression to it. But it has a little bit of a different jurisdiction for that crime, and we can talk more about that.<\/p>\n<p>But the most important thing that this court is doing, really, is to ensure that there\u2019s accountability and to fight impunity for these really very, very serious crimes under international law. And it works as a court of last resort, meaning it\u2019s not something that you go to the first thing, after terrible crimes, as war crimes happen, but they really try to wait and see what are the governments [doing] that are party to an armed conflict\u2014in most of the situations that they investigate; they do investigate other situations that are not an armed conflict\u2014and they ensure that those crimes are fully investigated, that they are credible investigations, that the countries are willing and able to hold perpetrators accountable. And if that is the case, they just don\u2019t do anything; they just monitor from a distance. But when governments fail to take action, and they show that they are not genuinely really engaging in investigating war crimes and other serious crimes, they step in. And this is really why they are called a court of last resort.<\/p>\n<p>Often people think that, &#8220;Oh, this is the first thing that they do. They are going to investigate anyone who\u2019s committed war crimes.&#8221; In fact, they don\u2019t have the capacity; even if they wanted to, even if they had the jurisdiction, to investigate war crimes all over the world, they don\u2019t have that capacity. And they are really built as a way to ensure that no impunity prevails, that there\u2019s some sort of accountability for victims.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> It seems very important to say: They are not proactively going around the world, deciding that crimes have been committed. It\u2019s when countries fail to do their own investigation that then the ICC sees fit to step in.<\/p>\n<p>Well John Bolton, of course, would not miss any chance to say, \u201cInternational law is not the boss of us,\u201d but the timing of this particular speech seems to be meaningful, isn&#8217;t it, in terms of what the ICC is doing at the moment?<\/p>\n<p><b>JD:<\/b> Yes, absolutely. First of all, it\u2019s the timing, when the US, under the Trump administration, is going on an unprecedented attack on international bodies, particularly the ones that have consistently resisted United States hegemony and United States diktat, in terms of ensuring that there will be respect for human rights, ensuring that there will be accountability, ensuring that there will not be just the United States\u2019 interests that are really protected out there, but are really consistent with international law and consistent with particularly UN charter, of ensuring peace, security and protection of individual human rights.<\/p>\n<p>So there is a general attack on international bodies that this Trump administration have shown a determination, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/world\/national-security\/us-expected-to-back-away-from-un-human-rights-council\/2018\/06\/19\/a49c2d0c-733c-11e8-b4b7-308400242c2e_story.html?utm_term=.5fa4c04f6eb6\">withdrawing<\/a> from the UN Human Rights Council, as we\u2019ve seen last June; the US also has been <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2018\/07\/13\/world\/europe\/united-nations-migration-agreement.html\">pulling out<\/a> of negotiations leading up to the global migration pact, which was a really important international pact that would address the root causes of migration and protection of migrants. And there are other examples of how the United States has really shown disrespect and disregard to international law and accountability.<\/p>\n<p>And here the case is even more troubling, because the United States is <a href=\"https:\/\/www.apnews.com\/f1ca6338ccc34a00982036d41d46aaaa\">sending a message<\/a> to the ICC that &#8220;we are going to boycott you, we will not cooperate with you, we will sever all cooperation,&#8221; the very limited one that was developed over the years, even though the United States is not a party to the court. The Trump administration is <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonexaminer.com\/news\/white-house\/trump-to-put-international-criminal-court-on-notice-over-war-crimes-investigation\">telling<\/a> the court that, &#8220;If you decide to move into a full investigation into war crimes committed by US forces in Afghanistan, we will then take punitive measures against your staff, against the judges, against prosecutors. We will freeze their assets, if they have any assets in the United States. We will ban their travel into the United States.&#8221; \u00a0Really very dangerous threats that were made by John Bolton.<\/p>\n<p>And why is all that? It&#8217;s literally an attempt to intimidate judges and prosecutors, who were basically telling the United States over the last several years, &#8220;You have an obligation under your own laws and under treaties that you ratified, including the Geneva Conventions, as well as the Torture Convention, to investigate, and <i>fully<\/i> investigate and<i> independently<\/i> investigate, and prosecute those who committed acts of torture.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>And the United States had very, very well documented reports by\u2014the last one was very known, maybe, to your listeners, the <a href=\"http:\/\/library.stanford.edu\/blogs\/stanford-libraries-blog\/2014\/12\/official-senate-cia-torture-report\">Senate Torture Report<\/a> that was released by the Senate Intelligence Committee in December of 2014, which documented the secret detention and torture of about 119 individuals in CIA secret prisons. Some of these prisons were located in Afghanistan, starting in 2002 and onward. Then the CIA created additional prisons in countries like Lithuania, Poland and Romania, and they transferred individuals who were held by the CIA to these secret locations and tortured them.<\/p>\n<p>So the ICC essentially <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2014\/dec\/10\/cia-report-prosecutions-international-law-icc\">was telling<\/a> the United States, &#8220;You have an obligation to investigate.&#8221; They have not made that announcement because the United States is a party, but because Afghanistan is a member of the court. And that is really important for your listeners to understand: Although the United States is not a member of this treaty, did not ratify it, it acted on Afghan soil; it had troops in Afghanistan that were operating, and they committed war crimes and crimes against humanity, that have consequences under Afghanistan treaty obligations. And because Afghanistan is party to the court since May of 2003, the ICC has jurisdiction to investigate and to potentially prosecute individuals who will be found to have had a responsibility to commit acts of torture.<\/p>\n<p>So this is why we are now in a position where John Bolton is trying to send an intimidating message to these prosecutors and judges not to take the case\u2014the full investigation against the United States\u2014even though this investigation, by the way, is not only against the United States officials or members of the armed services or the CIA agents, it involves all parties to the conflict in Afghanistan. It includes the Taliban. It includes Afghan forces. It includes other allied forces, like the UK, and others who operate in Afghanistan and may have committed war crimes.<\/p>\n<p>The torture in Afghanistan by US forces was not just a few bad apples, was not just a few members of the military or the CIA who went rogue, and they committed acts of violence and torture against detainees.<\/p>\n<p>The acts that were committed there were part of a policy of the United States. One program was under the secretary of Defense at the time, Donald Rumsfeld, that <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2008\/12\/12\/washington\/12detainee.html\">had authorized the use of torture<\/a>. And then the second one was under the CIA, where they operated separately from the military, and had its own and even worse program that resulted in the use of torture\u2014&#8221;cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment&#8221;\u2014that are <a href=\"https:\/\/ihl-databases.icrc.org\/customary-ihl\/eng\/docs\/v2_rul_rule90_sectiona\">violations of the Geneva Conventions<\/a>, violations also of the ICC\u2019s Rome Statute, because Afghanistan was a party.<\/p>\n<p>So even though the United States has never really taken full responsibility over serious crimes in Afghanistan, that doesn\u2019t mean that the crimes were not committed. The United States says\u2014and that\u2019s something that Bolton mentioned in his speech\u2014that the United States has a robust judicial system and independent investigative bodies, and if we make mistakes, we may correct them. And yet the record, the facts show that we actually did <i>not<\/i> make any corrections with regard to the CIA program. We have not seen a full investigation.<\/p>\n<p>The one that was opened during the Obama administration was very limited in scope. It did not look at the whole program. It did not have, to our understanding, a full access to all the information that was collected by the Senate Intelligence Committee. It did not have the authority, as independent counsel would have, to go after the fact and to establish fact. And it certainly excluded certain crimes, because they tried to establish certain kinds of protection to certain members of the CIA by saying, &#8220;If you followed in good faith legal advice that was given to you, and you committed acts of torture, you may not be held liable; you may not be held responsible.&#8221; And so that\u2019s part of what the problem was with the investigation.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_8928068\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-8928068\" src=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/09\/Jamil-Dakwar-Portrait.jpg\" alt=\"Jamil Dakwar (image: Witness to Guantanamo)\" width=\"350\" height=\"438\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em>Jamil Dakwar: &#8220;These wrongs and these crimes, if they are not investigated and prosecuted, then most likely this will happen again in the next armed conflict the United States will be involved in.&#8221; (image: <a href=\"http:\/\/witnesstoguantanamo.com\/bios\/jamil-dakwar\/\">Witness to Guantanamo<\/a>)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p>So we see that \u00a0the United States failed to investigate its own forces in Afghanistan, including the CIA; as you said, that\u2019s why the ICC <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2018\/09\/12\/john-bolton-icc-afghanistan-war-crimes\/\">is stepping in<\/a>. It is stepping in because they see that these wrongs and these crimes, if they are not investigated and prosecuted, then most likely this will happen again in the next armed conflict the United States will be involved in.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing that Bolton <a href=\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/blog\/human-rights\/human-rights-and-national-security\/trump-administration-threatens-international\">was trying to say<\/a> is the ICC will be able to prosecute, investigate, acts of aggression, and he\u2019s just using fearmongering, really, and this is incorrect information. The crime of aggression that was added to the ICC jurisdiction is only applicable to those members of the court. So if you are not member of the court, or your officials are not a member of the court, they will not be going after you, they will not be going after your officials or members of your armed services. And even for those members of the court, they have to accede, they have to accept the jurisdiction over the crime of aggression.<\/p>\n<p>So Bolton not only attacked, threatened and intimidated\u2014and in order to intimidate the court, he used fearmongering and he used misinformation in order to show as if he has a case to be made against the ICC, while we know that the purpose of his speech is to destroy the court, is to really undermine legitimacy of the court in the eyes of Americans, in the eyes of the world.<\/p>\n<p>I think most Americans who go to war as part of the US armed services, they take the oath protecting, defending the Constitution, and I think part of that oath is also defending the ratified treaties, which are part of the law of the land.<\/p>\n<p>Geneva Convention is part of the law of the land. Every single person who goes through the military takes that oath. This is part of the training. You do not\u2014in any circumstances\u2014torture individuals, torture detainees, and that is just the golden rule.<\/p>\n<p>And yet the Bush administration at the time, and the military and the CIA, had an even worse version of it, violated all these rules that are really at the core of any training of US soldiers, that you would never subject detainees\u2014people in US custody abroad\u2014to torture and other forms of cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment.<\/p>\n<p>And so I think that when Bolton says, &#8220;What do we say to those members of the armed services,&#8221; I think he owes <i>them<\/i> an apology. He owes them an explanation. Why would the United States allow such a regime of torture to take place?<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> We\u2019ve been speaking with Jamil Dakwar, director of the<a href=\"http:\/\/aclu.org\"> ACLU<\/a>\u2019s Human Rights Program. You can find their work on this and on other issues online at<a href=\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/\"> ACLU.org<\/a>. Jamil Dakwar, thank you very much for joining us this week on <b>CounterSpin<\/b>.<\/p>\n<p><b>JD:<\/b> Thank you very much for having me on.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"et_bloom_bottom_trigger\"><\/span><br \/>\nThis piece was reprinted by <a href=\"http:\/\/rinf.com\">RINF Alternative News<\/a> with permission from <a href=\"https:\/\/fair.org\/home\/when-governments-fail-to-take-action-they-step-in\/\">FAIR<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Janine Jackson interviewed Jamil Dakwar on the International Criminal Court for the September 14, 2018, episode of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript. 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