{"id":260364,"date":"2016-08-06T22:13:09","date_gmt":"2016-08-06T22:13:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/newswire\/the-real-battle-is-whos-going-to-own-the-energy-supply-counterspin-interview-with-harvey-wasserman-on-renewables-and-nuclear-energy\/"},"modified":"2016-08-06T22:13:09","modified_gmt":"2016-08-06T22:13:09","slug":"the-real-battle-is-whos-going-to-own-the-energy-supply-counterspin-interview-with-harvey-wasserman-on-renewables-and-nuclear-energy","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/newswire\/the-real-battle-is-whos-going-to-own-the-energy-supply-counterspin-interview-with-harvey-wasserman-on-renewables-and-nuclear-energy\/","title":{"rendered":"\u2018The Real Battle Is, Who\u2019s Going to Own the Energy Supply?\u2019 &#8211; CounterSpin interview with Harvey Wasserman on renewables and nuclear energy"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><em>Janine Jackson interviewed Harvey Wasserman about renewables and nuclear power for the <a href=\"http:\/\/fair.org\/home\/david-perry-on-disabilities-and-police-violence-harvey-wasserman-on-nuclear-vs-renewables\/\">July 29, 2016, episode<\/a> of <strong>CounterSpin<\/strong>. This is a lightly edited transcript.<\/em><\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_5582270\" style=\"width: 611px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"http:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/08\/HarveyWasserman.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-5582270\" src=\"http:\/\/fair.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/08\/HarveyWasserman.jpg\" alt=\"Harvey Wasserman: (image: Ecological Options Network)\" width=\"601\" height=\"338\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\"><em>Harvey Wasserman: &#8220;These guys running around defending nuclear power aren\u2019t just defending nuclear power. What they\u2019re really about is protecting the grid, which is corporate-owned and corporate-controlled.&#8221; (image: <strong>Ecological Options Network<\/strong>)<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"wrapperMI_0\" class=\"wrap-mjp  \" style=\"padding:5px 0px 40px 0px;margin:0px;width:100%\">\n<div class=\"Eabove-mjp\" id=\"Eabove-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"subwrap-MI\">\n<div class=\"jp-innerwrap\">\n<div class=\"innerx\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerleft\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerright\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innertab\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"interface-mjp verdana-mjp\" style=\"height:71px\" id=\"interfaceMI_0\">\n<div class=\"MI-image Himg right-mjp\" id=\"MI_image_0\" style=\"width:auto;height:71px;overflow:hidden\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"T_mp3j_0\" class=\"player-track-title left-mjp norm-mjp plain-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"bars_holder\">\n<div class=\"loadMI_mp3j\" id=\"load_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"poscolMI_mp3j\" id=\"poscol_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"posbarMI_mp3j\" id=\"posbar_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div id=\"P-Time-MI_0\" class=\"jp-play-time\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"T-Time-MI_0\" class=\"jp-total-time\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"statusMI_0\" class=\"statusMI\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"transport-MI\">\n<div class=\"play-mjp\" id=\"playpause_mp3j_0\">Play<\/div>\n<div class=\"stop-mjp\" id=\"stop_mp3j_0\">Stop<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"buttons-wrap-mjp\" id=\"buttons-wrap-mjp_0\">\n<div class=\"mp3j-popout-MI\" id=\"lpp_mp3j_0\">pop out<\/div>\n<div id=\"download_mp3j_0\" class=\"dloadmp3-MI\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"mjp-volwrap\">\n<div class=\"MIsliderVolume\" id=\"vol_mp3j_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerExt1\" id=\"innerExt1_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"innerExt2\" id=\"innerExt2_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"Ebetween-mjp\" id=\"Ebetween-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"listwrap_mp3j\" id=\"L_mp3j_0\">\n<div class=\"wrapper-mjp\">\n<div class=\"playlist-colour\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"wrapper-mjp\">\n<ul class=\"ul-mjp darken1-mjp verdana-mjp med-mjp childNorm-mjp childPlain-mjp left-mjp\" id=\"UL_mp3j_0\">\n<li><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo\">\n<div class=\"mp3j-finfo-sleeve\">\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_gif_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo-gif\"><\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_finfo_txt_0\" class=\"mp3j-finfo-txt\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"mp3j-finfo-close\" id=\"mp3j_finfo_close_0\">X<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"mp3j_dlf_0\" class=\"mp3j-dlframe\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"mp3j-nosolution\" id=\"mp3j_nosolution_0\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"Ebelow-mjp\" id=\"Ebelow-mjp_0\"><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p>MP3jPLAYLISTS.MI_0 = [<br \/>\n\t{ name: &#8220;1. 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A recent <b>New York Times<\/b> <a href=\"http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2016\/07\/20\/business\/energy-environment\/how-renewable-energy-is-blowing-climate-change-efforts-off-course.html?_r=0\">article<\/a> finds a different villain: renewable energy, or, in <b>Times<\/b> reporter Eduardo Porter\u2019s words, \u201cthe United States\u2019 infatuation with renewable energy.\u201d It\u2019s a puzzling assertion, even before you get to what Porter says is the most worrisome development&#8211;that renewables are pushing out nuclear power, which he describes repeatedly as producing \u201czero carbon\u201d electricity.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s going on here? To help us sort through it, we\u2019re joined by activist and journalist Harvey Wasserman, author of, among other titles, <i>Solartopia: Our Green-Powered Earth<\/i>. Welcome back to <b>CounterSpin<\/b>, Harvey Wasserman.<\/p>\n<p><b>Harvey Wasserman:<\/b> It\u2019s great to be with you, Janine. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> Well, in this July 19 piece, Eduardo Porter says, \u201cThe United States and indeed the world would do well to reconsider the promise and the limitations of its infatuation with renewable energy\u201d&#8211;though there isn\u2019t actually anything in it to hint at the \u201cpromise\u201d part. Besides the article\u2019s undercurrent about people being too stupid to know what\u2019s good for them, which is irritating, what\u2019s wrong with the picture that the <b>Times<\/b> is presenting here?<\/p>\n<p><b>HW:<\/b> Well, the question is what\u2019s right with it. I mean, this guy had really dug deep to come up with arguments against renewable energy, none of which make any sense unless you\u2019re working for the fossil fuel and nuclear power industries, or what I call King CONG&#8211;coal, oil, nukes and gas. The <b>Times<\/b> has been a <a href=\"http:\/\/fair.org\/home\/new-york-times-nuclear-establishment-tool\/\">cheerleader for nuclear power<\/a> right since Hiroshima; they\u2019re not letting up. And in this article, Eduardo Porter&#8211;I don\u2019t know what drugs these guys take, but he\u2019s basically saying that renewable energy is harming the fight against climate change because it\u2019s bankrupting nuclear power. I mean&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>And then he goes to these great lengths to say things that are absolutely false about nuclear power, the idea that it\u2019s cheap, that it\u2019s clean, and that it gives us base-load power, completely ignoring the fact that the grid on which nuclear power sends its electricity is completely obsolete, outmoded, and that we are moving to an energy economy that\u2019s based on decentralized and distributed generation rather than central generation. It\u2019s like this guy is arguing against cell phones because they\u2019re putting out land lines. That\u2019s basically the argument he\u2019s making, and it\u2019s utterly insane.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> Just on a point of fact, because it\u2019s something that not just Porter and not just the <b>Times<\/b>, but it\u2019s a thing that we see repeatedly, the idea that nuclear is zero carbon. Real quick, how is that justified? Nuclear power is not zero carbon.<\/p>\n<p><b>HW:<\/b> Yeah, well, first of all, just for a slight detail, all nuclear power plants emit carbon 14. Now, it\u2019s small quantities, but it is there. Just like they said there was zero odds on a nuclear power plant blowing up, and now five of them have exploded.<\/p>\n<p>And secondly and most importantly, nuclear power plants operate on uranium fuel pellets, which cause a tremendous amount of pollution in their production, both in the mining and the milling process, especially in the enrichment process. There\u2019s tremendous amounts of carbon emissions invested in every fuel pellet that\u2019s inside the core of a nuclear plant. It\u2019s simply a false argument.<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s annoying, and it\u2019s totally corporate-driven by an industry that\u2019s desperate to preserve its investments in coal, oil, nukes and gas, and are being driven out of business by solar energy. And it\u2019s astounding to see the so-called journal of record writing Orwellian articles that completely ignore reality and that are pushing an obsolete paradigm as well as some really dangerous fallacies.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> Well, what Porter seems to be saying is &#8212; I mean, what he says in the piece is that, well, renewables produce temporary gluts in power, and that drives out other sources. And he talks about how there are spikes in prices when the wind isn\u2019t blowing or when the sun isn\u2019t shining. I mean, the substance of the argument is, well, it might sound good, but it\u2019s not working. How do you get at that?<\/p>\n<p><b>HW:<\/b> Well, there\u2019s a little word that was invented by Benjamin Franklin that he has omitted from this article, which is \u201cbattery.\u201d Everybody knows that battery technology is now being advanced, there\u2019s a billion-dollar gigafactory being built in Nevada. All across the world, the battery industry is gearing up, and nobody who follows this technology doubts that within five years, there will be a major revolution in battery technology, which will go into houses and factories and automobiles and machinery, that will carry us over the so-called intermittent problem with renewable energy. I mean, this is no mystery.<\/p>\n<p>This article also does not mention the words \u201crooftop solar.\u201d The real revolution in renewables is photovoltaic cells on rooftops of all the homes and all the factories and all the businesses in the world that will get rid of the grid. The grid is obsolete, it\u2019s 20th century technology, it really came in in the 1880s, when Edison invented the utility industry, and it\u2019s on its way out. And this article, really, by Porter, and so much other hype that we see around the industry\u2019s PR machine, completely ignores the obvious transformation that\u2019s happening in the energy business. It\u2019s astonishing.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> I think you\u2019re touching something that is going to be not necessarily what listeners have heard about. We feel like we\u2019re in a thing where fossil fuels, we\u2019re trying to change them to renewables. But you put your finger on a deeper shift which is not so obvious, and that is, just what you\u2019re saying, from this centralized, grid-based, corporate control to decentralized, citizen-based, community control. And when you say it like that, it gets a little easier to understand why there would be pushback.<\/p>\n<p><b>HW:<\/b> Well, I did a very elaborate <a href=\"http:\/\/www.ecowatch.com\/ny-times-pushes-nukes-claiming-renewables-fail-climate-change-1942048130.html\">article<\/a> on <a href=\"http:\/\/www.ecowatch.com\/\"><b>EcoWatch.com<\/b><\/a>, which people might want to look at, dissecting this piece. Because it was so twisted, and it really requires that you go just one step below. These guys running around defending nuclear power aren\u2019t just defending nuclear power. What they\u2019re really about is protecting the grid, which is corporate-owned and corporate-controlled, and the real battle here in the energy world is who\u2019s going to own the energy supply. Is it going to be the corporations with their centralized grid and these coal, oil, nuke and gas burners, or is it going to be the public with a decentralized post-grid reality that\u2019s based on solar panels and, to a certain extent, wind and biofuels and all the other stuff that you can do on a decentralized basis?<\/p>\n<p>And that&#8217;s really what the bigger battle is about. And, of course, the grid and the fossil nuclear industry are not ecologically sustainable, and they do mean the end of the Earth. Whereas the decentralized grid, we can balance it in harmony with Mother Nature, and build technologies or use technologies that work in harmony with the planet, and maybe we can actually survive.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> That sounds like a good idea!<\/p>\n<p>Let me just say, finally, we can see, then, where the fear is coming from, and there clearly is a campaign at work, because Porter\u2019s done this before, the <b>Times<\/b> has done this before. We just saw the <b>Wall Street Journal<\/b> a few weeks back <a href=\"http:\/\/fair.org\/home\/wsj-fakes-a-green-shift-toward-nuclear-power\/\">claiming<\/a> that the big environmental groups are now changing their stance and embracing nuclear. There\u2019s clearly an effort to change people\u2019s minds about this. So for those who might think, well, everyone gets that renewables are better and it\u2019s just going to happen&#8211;there still is a fight on, is there not?<\/p>\n<p><b>HW:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s worse than that, because ALEC, the Koch brothers\u2019 front group, the American Legislative Exchange Council, is going state-by-state and passing laws that limit and even roll back the progress of the renewable energy industry. They\u2019ve imposed, for example, statewide limits on how much renewables can be put into the grid. Southern California, Los Angeles, should become the world\u2019s first solartopian megalopolis, where the whole city should be on solar, and there are actually legal limits as to how much solar generation you can do on your own house. They will not allow solar installers, who are licensed to put solar panels on your house, that will generate more power than you actually use. It\u2019s ridiculous.<\/p>\n<p>And this is all part of the corporate attempt, the fossil-nuclear industry\u2019s attempt to stop the revolution in renewables. Because everybody knows, including the utility industry, that the solar revolution, the solartopian transition, means the end of the centralized utility industry, and that\u2019s what they\u2019re fighting to preserve. And unfortunately, it\u2019s at the expense of our public health and the survivability of the planet.<\/p>\n<p><b>JJ:<\/b> We\u2019ve been speaking with Harvey Wasserman. You can find his book <i>Solartopia<\/i> online at <a href=\"http:\/\/solartopia.org\/\"><b>Solartopia.org<\/b><\/a>, along with, soon, the forthcoming <i>America at the Brink of Rebirth: The Organic Spiral of US History<\/i>. Thank you very much, Harvey Wasserman, for joining us this week on <b>CounterSpin<\/b>.<\/p>\n<p><b>HW:<\/b> Well, thank you, Janine. Anytime.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>This piece was reprinted by <a href=\"http:\/\/rinf.com\">RINF Alternative News<\/a> with permission from <a href=\"http:\/\/fair.org\/home\/the-real-battle-is-whos-going-to-own-the-energy-supply\/\">FAIR<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Janine Jackson interviewed Harvey Wasserman about renewables and nuclear power for the July 29, 2016, episode of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript. Harvey Wasserman: &#8220;These guys running around defending nuclear power aren\u2019t just defending nuclear power. What they\u2019re really about is protecting the grid, which is corporate-owned and corporate-controlled.&#8221; (image: Ecological Options Network) [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[519],"tags":[],"class_list":{"0":"post-260364","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","6":"category-newswire"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/260364","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=260364"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/260364\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=260364"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=260364"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/rinf.com\/alt-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=260364"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}