The names Khaled El Masri, Moazzam Begg, Binyam Mohammad, and Maher Arar may not sound familiar to most people. 姓名哈立德馬斯里下午， moazzam ， Begg ， binyam穆罕默德 ， 並馬希爾Arar的可能不是很耳熟，以最廣大人民的。 But they are among the hundreds of people, many of whom have no proven ties to terrorist organizations, who since 1997 have been removed from airports on suspicions based at times on the flimsiest of evidence. 但他們當中有數百人，其中許多人已沒有任何證明恐怖主義組織有聯繫，他自1997年起已被調離機場，基於猜疑，有時就站不住腳的證據。 They have been escorted away at boarding gates, grabbed while they changed planes, and approached on street corners. 他們被帶離在登機閘口，搶奪，而他們改變了飛機，並走近街頭角落。 Those accused disappeared into a secret world of endless interrogations and torture; all transported care of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). 那些被指控消失到了一個秘密的世界無休止的盤問及酷刑;所有運往照顧美國中央情報中央情報局（ CIA ） 。

In his new book Ghost Plane: The True Story of the CIA Torture Program , award-winning investigative journalist Stephen Grey tells the true story of what became of the CIA’s torture program known by the euphemism “extraordinary rendition” and the airplanes that make the program run.在其新著幽靈飛機：真實的故事，中情局酷刑節目 ，獲獎的調查記者斯蒂芬格雷告訴大家真實的故事後來成為了中央情報局的酷刑節目已知由委婉的"非常規引渡"的飛機，使該程序運行。 Citizen reporter Chris Brown spoke with him by telephone while he was in New York on a book tour.公民記者克里斯布朗談到與他通過電話，當時他在紐約的一本書之旅。

Your first encounter with the rendition program began back in December 2001 while you were interviewing a certain congressperson, who later became one of President Bush’s key men in the war on terror. 你的第一次相遇移交計劃始於早在2001年12月，而你面試某congressperson ，他後來成了一名布什總統的關鍵官兵在反恐戰爭。 Could you briefly talk about this? 您能否簡單介紹一下這個嗎？

I was working for The Sunday Times of London and I was in Washington just after Sept. 11.我的工作，為週日的時候，倫敦和我在華盛頓後， 9月11日。 I sat down on a sofa in an office on Capital Hill in the office of Porter Goss, who was then the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and later became head of the CIA.我坐在上沙發上，在一個辦公室就資本希爾在辦公室的波特戈斯，他那時是主席的眾議院情報委員會，並在後來成為頭部的中央情報局。 It was he for the first time who actually told me the term “rendition.” I was asking about what the CIA had been doing to capture Osama Bin Laden, and I said, “Could he have been kidnapped?” And he said, “It’s called rendition.這是他為第一次究竟是誰告訴我而言， "移交" ，我是問什麼，中情局一直努力不懈，以捕獲拉登，我回答說： "可能他被綁架？ " ，他說： "它的所謂的重現。 Have you heard of that?” And I said, “No I haven’t.” And he said it’sa way of bringing people to a kind of justice.你有聽說過嗎？ "我回答說： "不，我沒有這樣做。 "他說，它的方式，使人們的一種正義。

So I was very intrigued to hear about this kind of concept.所以我很器推出聽到這樣的概念。 And that really was the start of what had become many years of inquiries to try to get to the bottom of it.那真的是一開始就什麼已成為多年的調查，以努力到達底部。

Many in the US might think that this so-called rendition policy is a new weapon to pursue terrorists. 美國國內許多人可能認為這個所謂的移交逃犯政策，是一種新武器，以追求恐怖分子。 But, in fact, it’s been around for a number of years. 但事實上，它的周圍一直為持續數年。 Can you speak about this? 您能否談談這個嗎？

Rendition itself — which basically means sending people across to another country without any trial, legal process, or treaty — that’s been going on since the 1880s.移交逃犯本身-這根本就是把全國人民到另一個國家，沒有任何審判，法律過程中，或條約-這就是一直在進行，自1 9世紀80年代。 It started off with the case of someone being picked up in Peru by the它開始時的情況下，有人正在回升，在秘魯所 Pinkerton Detective Agency平克頓偵探機構 , quite an early example of a contractor operating under presidential authority.不少較早的一個實例，承辦經營下，總統職權。 But the point was that this kind of rendition involved bringing people back to trial in the United States, in other words before an open trial, before a judge and jury.但問題是，這種移交逃犯參與，讓生活回到美國法庭審判，換句話說，才公開審理之前，法官和陪審團。 And as such, although laws are broken abroad, it was ruled to be legal in the US And that’s been going on for a very long time.正因如此，儘管法律是打破了國外，它被裁決是合法的，在美國，並一直持續了很長的時間。

I don’t suppose many people would have much to protest about that.我不假設很多人都會有很大的抗議。 But what I’m writing about in the book is the program of extraordinary rendition.但是我寫在書中是作為節目有著非同尋常的移交逃犯。 That began as a systematic program used against suspected Islamic terrorists in the 1990s under Bill Clinton, specifically in 1995.開始作為一個系統的計劃，用來對付被懷疑伊斯蘭恐怖分子在上世紀90年代下，比爾克林頓，特別是在1995年。 And its been going on ever since.和它一直在持續至今。 Although, I have to say that while this program started under Clinton, it expanded dramatically after Sept. 11.雖然，我必須說，雖然這項計劃開始實施，根據克林頓，它急劇擴大後， 9月11日。

In the book you write about Canadian citizen Maher Arar. 在這本書中，你寫加拿大公民馬希爾Arar的。 The US sent him to Syria. 美國送他到敘利亞。 Before he was sent there he was interrogated for quite some time by the US When Arar found out that he would be sent to Syria, where he is originally from, he pleaded with the US agents not to send him there because he was certain that he would be tortured. 然後他被送往那裡，他被審問了一段時間，由美國的時候，阿拉鄂查出，他將被送往敘利亞，在那裡他原本是從，他與美國代理商不要送他，因為他一定會說，他將拷打。 The Bush administration has repeated that it doesn’t torture. 布什政府已多次表示，美國沒有虐待。 But, in fact, it is at the very least outsourcing torture when it sends people off to places like Syria, Egypt, or Uzbekistan. 但事實上，它是在非常至少外包酷刑時，它發出人民的小康，以地方一樣，敘利亞，埃及，或烏茲別克斯坦。 More to the point, the US have been involved directly with interrogations that have involved torture, most notably Abu Ghraib. 還有一點，美國已直接介入與盤問，有涉及酷刑，最顯著的阿布格萊布。 I was wondering if you might comment more on this? 我想知道，你可能會更多評論對此有何評價？

Sure, the basic problem for the US is that the laws prohibit torture and no one can be directly involved in it.當然，根本問題，美國是法律禁止酷刑，任何人都可以直接參與。 So the mechanism of sending people to another country does certainly allow interrogations to take place, which wouldn’t be allowed if carried out by US agents themselves.所以機制派人到另一個國家是否一定讓盤問到什麼地方，這將不會獲准，如果進行了由美國代理人自己。 And, you know, initially when President Bush first commented about rendition he said, “We don’t send people to countries that torture.” And they had to revise that because I think the lawyers pointed out that, in fact, America does.和，你知道，最初的時候，美國總統布什首次評論關於移交逃犯他說： "我們不派人去國家酷刑" ，他們不得不修改，因為我認為該律師指出，事實上，美國沒有。

And there are lots of countries that send their people to other countries to be tortured.還有許多國家送的人到其他國家以刑求。 Funnily enough the best evidence, if you want to read about torture in Syria, is to look at publications by the US government that show, in very great detail, the kind of torture reserved for people who upset the state in Syria, and in particular people who are accused of being Islamic militants face the worst kind of torture.有趣的最佳證據，如果你想讀的關於酷刑，在敘利亞，是看刊物由美國政府表明，在非常非常詳細，什麼樣的酷刑預留作的人，擾亂了國家在敘利亞，特別是人被指控為伊斯蘭激進份子面對最壞的一種酷刑。

It’s not just a matter of getting people off the street, keeping them out of harm’s way.它不僅是一個事讓人們在街頭出沒，使他們走出傷害的方式。 I mean, Maher Arar could have been flown back to Canada; in fact he was on his way home to Canada.我的意思是，馬希爾Arar的可能已飛回加拿大，事實上，他就在回家途中到加拿大。 There was a deliberate choice to send him to a country where, it was believed, he would be properly interrogated.有一種故意選擇送他到一個國家，據認為，他會得到妥善審問。 And when he arrived he wasn’t wanted by Syria; Syria had no interest in him.而當他來到他是不想要了敘利亞;敘利亞沒有興趣在他身上。 He was sent with a list of questions attached.他隨即被送往同一份問題清單附後。 He was asked about the threat that he posed to the US and to Canada.他問到了威脅說，他對美國和加拿大。 He wasn’t asked about Syria.他沒有問及敘利亞。 So this is a very clear example of outsourcing, of getting other people to do your dirty work for you.因此，這是一個很明顯的例子，外包，讓其他人做你的骯髒為您工作。

I read something in the book that I found disturbing. 我看了一些書，我發現令人不安。 The pilots who flew the planes were issued fake IDs and licenses by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). 飛行員駕駛飛機發出假的身份證件和許可證由聯邦航空管理局（ FAA ） 。 Can you speak more on this? 你能多講一些關於這個？

It’s quite striking that these people are able to fly around the world with control and knowledge of many government agencies that they’re using false documents and false names.這是相當引人注意的是這些人能夠飛往世界各地，與對照和知識的許多政府機構，他們正在使用假證件和假名字。 And it’s involved the FAA, it’s involved state offices who issue fake driver’s licenses, it involves private contractors down in San Jose.它的參與亞洲藝術節的，它的參與國家事務處簽發偽造的駕駛執照，它涉及到私人承辦，在聖荷西。 You have a major subsidiary of Boeing called Jefferson Data Plan, which is a private company that is involved in organizing private flights all around the world.你有一個重大的附屬公司，波音所謂杰弗遜數據計劃，這是一家私人公司，即是參與籌辦私人飛行世界各地。 And they work directly with the CIA in organizing these trips, which involve rendition.他們的工作直接與中情局在舉辦這些艘次，其中涉及的重現。 There was a quite interesting interview in the New Yorker where someone who actually worked for that company said that they were quite aware that these planes were being used for the outsourcing of torture.有一個很有趣的面試，在新的紐約客，那裡的人，其實是在該公司工作過說，他們很清楚知道這些飛機已經被用於外包的酷刑。 So there were a lot of people who had knowledge of this and I suppose everybody thinks it’s someone else’s job to work out whether this is right or wrong.所以有很多人認識這一點，我猜想每個人都認為這是別人的工作，以工作，這是否是正確或錯誤的。

Maher Arar was not known to have any significant links to terrorists. 馬希爾Arar的不知道有任何重大的恐怖份子有關聯。 The CIA admit that on occasion they target the wrong person. 中情局承認，有時他們的目標錯了。 Can you talk about this more? 你能談談這個嗎？

Well I do believe that when they pick these people up they don’t deliberately target someone who’s innocent.好，我相信，當他們挑選這些人，他們並不刻意目標的人，無辜的。 They really do suspect that they are capturing someone and try to get him out of the way.他們真的真的懷疑他們是捕捉有人嘗試將他趕出了道路。

But there seems to be a kind of recklessness about finding out the truth here, and Khaled El-Masri, who is a German citizen for example, he was picked up by people in the CIA who thought he was somebody else.但似乎有一種種魯莽約找出真相，在這裡，和Khaled埃及馬斯里，他是德國公民舉例說，他拿起人們在中情局的人以為他是別人。 But as Khaled himself said, to verify a passport just takes a few weeks.但由於哈立德如他自己所言，以核實一本護照只需要幾個星期。 He was held for five months in solitary confinement.他被關押了5個月的禁閉。 And he wasn’t even questioned for months at a time.他甚至沒有質疑長達幾個月的時間。 Essentially he was forgotten in this jail and he wasn’t really that important to try to sort out the truth.基本上，他是被遺忘在這個監獄，他並非真的那麼重要，試圖弄清真相。

Likewise, Maher Arar was questioned on the flimsiest of evidence.同樣，馬希爾Arar的質疑就站不住腳的證據。 He knew somebody, went for a walk with somebody who himself was under investigation.他知道有些人，去散步，與一位自己正在調查之中。 It’s amazing through these intelligence reports how you can link someone to terrorism on these small pieces of evidence.它的驚人，透過這些情報報告的，你怎麼可以連某人恐怖主義對這些小件的證據。 But he was completely cleared.但他被徹底清除。 Maher Arar was judged by an official Canadian inquiry to be a man with no connections whatsoever with terrorists.馬希爾Arar的判斷由一個加拿大官方調查，以被一名男子以沒有聯繫，無論如何，都與恐怖分子。 And it just highlights secret detentions, secret intelligence and no opportunity to test this intelligence in a courtroom, have a lawyer try to challenge what you’re accused of, is a system that is bound to end up locking up and mistreating people who are innocent.它只是突顯秘密關押，秘密情報，並沒有機會測試這一情報，在一處法庭，有一個律師試圖挑戰您要指責的，是一種制度，則勢必最終鎖定和虐待的人都是無辜的。 Because there is no safety valve to really check whether we’re doing to this to other people who really have got something that they’re guilty of.因為沒有安全閥，要真正看看我們正在做這給其他人真的有東西，他們正在犯。

And Maher Arar was compensated for his treatment by the Canadian government and issued a public apology, correct? 和馬希爾Arar的補償他的待遇由加拿大政府，並發出了公開道歉，對不對？

That’s right he’s been compensated, the head of the Royal Mounted Police has resigned, the government has apologized.是啊，他的得到賠償，總行的皇家騎警已辭職，政府進行了道歉。 Although there was poor evidence linking him to Al Qaeda, which turned out to be wrong, they have apologized for that.雖然有窮證據顯示他向蓋達組織，它最終被證明是錯誤的，他們表示道歉。 What should be said is that Canada played no role in the decision to send him to Syria.什麼應該說的是，加拿大扮演任何角色，在決定送他到敘利亞。 So whatever wrong intelligence they had and supplied to US, ultimately it was the US that decided to send him to be tortured.所以，無論是錯誤的情報，他們已經和供應給美國，最終還是被美國決定派他到刑求。

And what’s really striking is that, although the administration continues to state publicly that it’s against torture and that there are all kinds of laws that prohibit torture and ensure that people that take part in torture are prosecuted, there appears to be no way from him to complain in the US He tried to file a lawsuit, and it’s been judged that it can’t go ahead because if it did it might reveal state secrets.有什麼能真正引人注目的是，雖然政府當局繼續公開聲明，它的禁止酷刑，而且有各種各樣的法律，禁止酷刑和確保人民參與酷刑被起訴時，似乎沒有從他的抱怨，在美國他試圖提起訴訟，它的被判斷，它不能繼續前進，因為如果它這樣做，它可能透露國家機密。 So, there’s been no avenue given to these people to actually get their day in court and find justice at last.因此，各方面的，沒有路給這些人實際上得到他們當天在法庭上，並找到公正，在最後一次。

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