The names Khaled El Masri, Moazzam Begg, Binyam Mohammad, and Maher Arar may not sound familiar to most people. 姓名哈立德马斯里下午， moazzam ， Begg ， binyam穆罕默德 ， 并马希尔Arar的可能不是很耳熟，以最广大人民的。 But they are among the hundreds of people, many of whom have no proven ties to terrorist organizations, who since 1997 have been removed from airports on suspicions based at times on the flimsiest of evidence. 但他们当中有数百人，其中许多人已没有任何证明恐怖主义组织有联系，他自1997年起已被调离机场，基于猜疑，有时就站不住脚的证据。 They have been escorted away at boarding gates, grabbed while they changed planes, and approached on street corners. 他们被带离在登机闸口，抢夺，而他们改变了飞机，并走近街头角落。 Those accused disappeared into a secret world of endless interrogations and torture; all transported care of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). 那些被指控消失到了一个秘密的世界无休止的盘问及酷刑;所有运往照顾美国中央情报中央情报局（ CIA ） 。

In his new book Ghost Plane: The True Story of the CIA Torture Program , award-winning investigative journalist Stephen Grey tells the true story of what became of the CIA’s torture program known by the euphemism “extraordinary rendition” and the airplanes that make the program run.在其新著幽灵飞机：真实的故事，中情局酷刑节目 ，获奖的调查记者斯蒂芬格雷告诉大家真实的故事后来成为了中央情报局的酷刑节目已知由委婉的"非常规引渡"的飞机，使该程序运行。 Citizen reporter Chris Brown spoke with him by telephone while he was in New York on a book tour.公民记者克里斯布朗谈到与他通过电话，当时他在纽约的一本书之旅。

Your first encounter with the rendition program began back in December 2001 while you were interviewing a certain congressperson, who later became one of President Bush’s key men in the war on terror. 你的第一次相遇移交计划始于早在2001年12月，而你面试某congressperson ，他后来成了一名布什总统的关键官兵在反恐战争。 Could you briefly talk about this? 您能否简单介绍一下这个吗？

I was working for The Sunday Times of London and I was in Washington just after Sept. 11.我的工作，为周日的时候，伦敦和我在华盛顿后， 9月11日。 I sat down on a sofa in an office on Capital Hill in the office of Porter Goss, who was then the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and later became head of the CIA.我坐在上沙发上，在一个办公室就资本希尔在办公室的波特戈斯，他那时是主席的众议院情报委员会，并在后来成为头部的中央情报局。 It was he for the first time who actually told me the term “rendition.” I was asking about what the CIA had been doing to capture Osama Bin Laden, and I said, “Could he have been kidnapped?” And he said, “It’s called rendition.这是他为第一次究竟是谁告诉我而言， "移交" ，我是问什么，中情局一直努力不懈，以捕获拉登，我回答说： "可能他被绑架？ " ，他说： "它的所谓的重现。 Have you heard of that?” And I said, “No I haven’t.” And he said it’sa way of bringing people to a kind of justice.你有听说过吗？ "我回答说： "不，我没有这样做。 "他说，它的方式，使人们的一种正义。

So I was very intrigued to hear about this kind of concept.所以我很器推出听到这样的概念。 And that really was the start of what had become many years of inquiries to try to get to the bottom of it.那真的是一开始就什么已成为多年的调查，以努力到达底部。

Many in the US might think that this so-called rendition policy is a new weapon to pursue terrorists. 美国国内许多人可能认为这个所谓的移交逃犯政策，是一种新武器，以追求恐怖分子。 But, in fact, it’s been around for a number of years. 但事实上，它的周围一直为持续数年。 Can you speak about this? 您能否谈谈这个吗？

Rendition itself — which basically means sending people across to another country without any trial, legal process, or treaty — that’s been going on since the 1880s.移交逃犯本身-这根本就是把全国人民到另一个国家，没有任何审判，法律过程中，或条约-这就是一直在进行，自1 9世纪80年代。 It started off with the case of someone being picked up in Peru by the它开始时的情况下，有人正在回升，在秘鲁所 Pinkerton Detective Agency平克顿侦探机构 , quite an early example of a contractor operating under presidential authority.不少较早的一个实例，承办经营下，总统职权。 But the point was that this kind of rendition involved bringing people back to trial in the United States, in other words before an open trial, before a judge and jury.但问题是，这种移交逃犯参与，让生活回到美国法庭审判，换句话说，才公开审理之前，法官和陪审团。 And as such, although laws are broken abroad, it was ruled to be legal in the US And that’s been going on for a very long time.正因如此，尽管法律是打破了国外，它被裁决是合法的，在美国，并一直持续了很长的时间。

I don’t suppose many people would have much to protest about that.我不假设很多人都会有很大的抗议。 But what I’m writing about in the book is the program of extraordinary rendition.但是我写在书中是作为节目有着非同寻常的移交逃犯。 That began as a systematic program used against suspected Islamic terrorists in the 1990s under Bill Clinton, specifically in 1995.开始作为一个系统的计划，用来对付被怀疑伊斯兰恐怖分子在上世纪90年代下，比尔克林顿，特别是在1995年。 And its been going on ever since.和它一直在持续至今。 Although, I have to say that while this program started under Clinton, it expanded dramatically after Sept. 11.虽然，我必须说，虽然这项计划开始实施，根据克林顿，它急剧扩大后， 9月11日。

In the book you write about Canadian citizen Maher Arar. 在这本书中，你写加拿大公民马希尔Arar的。 The US sent him to Syria. 美国送他到叙利亚。 Before he was sent there he was interrogated for quite some time by the US When Arar found out that he would be sent to Syria, where he is originally from, he pleaded with the US agents not to send him there because he was certain that he would be tortured. 然后他被送往那里，他被审问了一段时间，由美国的时候，阿拉鄂查出，他将被送往叙利亚，在那里他原本是从，他与美国代理商不要送他，因为他一定会说，他将拷打。 The Bush administration has repeated that it doesn’t torture. 布什政府已多次表示，美国没有虐待。 But, in fact, it is at the very least outsourcing torture when it sends people off to places like Syria, Egypt, or Uzbekistan. 但事实上，它是在非常至少外包酷刑时，它发出人民的小康，以地方一样，叙利亚，埃及，或乌兹别克斯坦。 More to the point, the US have been involved directly with interrogations that have involved torture, most notably Abu Ghraib. 还有一点，美国已直接介入与盘问，有涉及酷刑，最显着的阿布格莱布。 I was wondering if you might comment more on this? 我想知道，你可能会更多评论对此有何评价？

Sure, the basic problem for the US is that the laws prohibit torture and no one can be directly involved in it.当然，根本问题，美国是法律禁止酷刑，任何人都可以直接参与。 So the mechanism of sending people to another country does certainly allow interrogations to take place, which wouldn’t be allowed if carried out by US agents themselves.所以机制派人到另一个国家是否一定让盘问到什么地方，这将不会获准，如果进行了由美国代理人自己。 And, you know, initially when President Bush first commented about rendition he said, “We don’t send people to countries that torture.” And they had to revise that because I think the lawyers pointed out that, in fact, America does.和，你知道，最初的时候，美国总统布什首次评论关于移交逃犯他说： "我们不派人去国家酷刑" ，他们不得不修改，因为我认为该律师指出，事实上，美国没有。

And there are lots of countries that send their people to other countries to be tortured.还有许多国家送的人到其他国家以刑求。 Funnily enough the best evidence, if you want to read about torture in Syria, is to look at publications by the US government that show, in very great detail, the kind of torture reserved for people who upset the state in Syria, and in particular people who are accused of being Islamic militants face the worst kind of torture.有趣的最佳证据，如果你想读的关于酷刑，在叙利亚，是看刊物由美国政府表明，在非常非常详细，什么样的酷刑预留作的人，扰乱了国家在叙利亚，特别是人被指控为伊斯兰激进份子面对最坏的一种酷刑。

It’s not just a matter of getting people off the street, keeping them out of harm’s way.它不仅是一个事让人们在街头出没，使他们走出伤害的方式。 I mean, Maher Arar could have been flown back to Canada; in fact he was on his way home to Canada.我的意思是，马希尔Arar的可能已飞回加拿大，事实上，他就在回家途中到加拿大。 There was a deliberate choice to send him to a country where, it was believed, he would be properly interrogated.有一种故意选择送他到一个国家，据认为，他会得到妥善审问。 And when he arrived he wasn’t wanted by Syria; Syria had no interest in him.而当他来到他是不想要了叙利亚;叙利亚没有兴趣在他身上。 He was sent with a list of questions attached.他随即被送往同一份问题清单附后。 He was asked about the threat that he posed to the US and to Canada.他问到了威胁说，他对美国和加拿大。 He wasn’t asked about Syria.他没有问及叙利亚。 So this is a very clear example of outsourcing, of getting other people to do your dirty work for you.因此，这是一个很明显的例子，外包，让其他人做你的肮脏为您工作。

I read something in the book that I found disturbing. 我看了一些书，我发现令人不安。 The pilots who flew the planes were issued fake IDs and licenses by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). 飞行员驾驶飞机发出假的身份证件和许可证由联邦航空管理局（ FAA ） 。 Can you speak more on this? 你能多讲一些关于这个？

It’s quite striking that these people are able to fly around the world with control and knowledge of many government agencies that they’re using false documents and false names.这是相当引人注意的是这些人能够飞往世界各地，与对照和知识的许多政府机构，他们正在使用假证件和假名字。 And it’s involved the FAA, it’s involved state offices who issue fake driver’s licenses, it involves private contractors down in San Jose.它的参与亚洲艺术节的，它的参与国家事务处签发伪造的驾驶执照，它涉及到私人承办，在圣荷西。 You have a major subsidiary of Boeing called Jefferson Data Plan, which is a private company that is involved in organizing private flights all around the world.你有一个重大的附属公司，波音所谓杰弗逊数据计划，这是一家私人公司，即是参与筹办私人飞行世界各地。 And they work directly with the CIA in organizing these trips, which involve rendition.他们的工作直接与中情局在举办这些艘次，其中涉及的重现。 There was a quite interesting interview in the New Yorker where someone who actually worked for that company said that they were quite aware that these planes were being used for the outsourcing of torture.有一个很有趣的面试，在新的纽约客，那里的人，其实是在该公司工作过说，他们很清楚知道这些飞机已经被用于外包的酷刑。 So there were a lot of people who had knowledge of this and I suppose everybody thinks it’s someone else’s job to work out whether this is right or wrong.所以有很多人认识这一点，我猜想每个人都认为这是别人的工作，以工作，这是否是正确或错误的。

Maher Arar was not known to have any significant links to terrorists. 马希尔Arar的不知道有任何重大的恐怖份子有关联。 The CIA admit that on occasion they target the wrong person. 中情局承认，有时他们的目标错了。 Can you talk about this more? 你能谈谈这个吗？

Well I do believe that when they pick these people up they don’t deliberately target someone who’s innocent.好，我相信，当他们挑选这些人，他们并不刻意目标的人，无辜的。 They really do suspect that they are capturing someone and try to get him out of the way.他们真的真的怀疑他们是捕捉有人尝试将他赶出了道路。

But there seems to be a kind of recklessness about finding out the truth here, and Khaled El-Masri, who is a German citizen for example, he was picked up by people in the CIA who thought he was somebody else.但似乎有一种种鲁莽约找出真相，在这里，和Khaled埃及马斯里，他是德国公民举例说，他拿起人们在中情局的人以为他是别人。 But as Khaled himself said, to verify a passport just takes a few weeks.但由于哈立德如他自己所言，以核实一本护照只需要几个星期。 He was held for five months in solitary confinement.他被关押了5个月的禁闭。 And he wasn’t even questioned for months at a time.他甚至没有质疑长达几个月的时间。 Essentially he was forgotten in this jail and he wasn’t really that important to try to sort out the truth.基本上，他是被遗忘在这个监狱，他并非真的那么重要，试图弄清真相。

Likewise, Maher Arar was questioned on the flimsiest of evidence.同样，马希尔Arar的质疑就站不住脚的证据。 He knew somebody, went for a walk with somebody who himself was under investigation.他知道有些人，去散步，与一位自己正在调查之中。 It’s amazing through these intelligence reports how you can link someone to terrorism on these small pieces of evidence.它的惊人，透过这些情报报告的，你怎么可以连某人恐怖主义对这些小件的证据。 But he was completely cleared.但他被彻底清除。 Maher Arar was judged by an official Canadian inquiry to be a man with no connections whatsoever with terrorists.马希尔Arar的判断由一个加拿大官方调查，以被一名男子以没有联系，无论如何，都与恐怖分子。 And it just highlights secret detentions, secret intelligence and no opportunity to test this intelligence in a courtroom, have a lawyer try to challenge what you’re accused of, is a system that is bound to end up locking up and mistreating people who are innocent.它只是突显秘密关押，秘密情报，并没有机会测试这一情报，在一处法庭，有一个律师试图挑战您要指责的，是一种制度，则势必最终锁定和虐待的人都是无辜的。 Because there is no safety valve to really check whether we’re doing to this to other people who really have got something that they’re guilty of.因为没有安全阀，要真正看看我们正在做这给其他人真的有东西，他们正在犯。

And Maher Arar was compensated for his treatment by the Canadian government and issued a public apology, correct? 和马希尔Arar的补偿他的待遇由加拿大政府，并发出了公开道歉，对不对？

That’s right he’s been compensated, the head of the Royal Mounted Police has resigned, the government has apologized.是啊，他的得到赔偿，总行的皇家骑警已辞职，政府进行了道歉。 Although there was poor evidence linking him to Al Qaeda, which turned out to be wrong, they have apologized for that.虽然有穷证据显示他向盖达组织，它最终被证明是错误的，他们表示道歉。 What should be said is that Canada played no role in the decision to send him to Syria.什么应该说的是，加拿大扮演任何角色，在决定送他到叙利亚。 So whatever wrong intelligence they had and supplied to US, ultimately it was the US that decided to send him to be tortured.所以，无论是错误的情报，他们已经和供应给美国，最终还是被美国决定派他到刑求。

And what’s really striking is that, although the administration continues to state publicly that it’s against torture and that there are all kinds of laws that prohibit torture and ensure that people that take part in torture are prosecuted, there appears to be no way from him to complain in the US He tried to file a lawsuit, and it’s been judged that it can’t go ahead because if it did it might reveal state secrets.有什么能真正引人注目的是，虽然政府当局继续公开声明，它的禁止酷刑，而且有各种各样的法律，禁止酷刑和确保人民参与酷刑被起诉时，似乎没有从他的抱怨，在美国他试图提起诉讼，它的被判断，它不能继续前进，因为如果它这样做，它可能透露国家机密。 So, there’s been no avenue given to these people to actually get their day in court and find justice at last.因此，各方面的，没有路给这些人实际上得到他们当天在法庭上，并找到公正，在最后一次。

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