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Zimbabwe and the Question of Imperialism津巴布韋和帝國主義的問題 Friday, June 27th, 2008 週五， 2008年6月27日 Listen to the Interview 聽採訪 Criticism of Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe and the actions of his ruling Zanu PF party is growing.批評津巴布韋總統穆加貝和行動，他的執政zanu酚醛黨是越來越大。 The most recent condemnation comes from former South African President Nelson Mandela, who mourned the “tragic failure of leadership” in Zimbabwe on Wednesday.最近期的譴責，來自南非前總統納爾遜曼德拉，誰哀悼“悲慘失敗的領導者”在津巴布韋對週三。 They were the former leader’s first comments on the situation.它們分別是前領導人的首次評論有關情況。 President Bush also criticized Mugabe Wednesday for defying international pressure to cancel a run-off election scheduled for Friday.布什總統也批評穆加貝週三為無視國際壓力，取消了決勝選舉定於週五。 Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai won the first round of elections in March but withdrew from the run off late on Sunday and sought refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harare out of what he says is concern for his safety.反對派領導人摩根茨萬吉拉伊贏了第一回合的3月的選舉中，但退出運行過晚對週日和尋求庇護的在荷蘭大使館在哈拉雷出什麼樣的，他說是關心他的安全。 On Wednesday he called for the African Union backed by the United Nations, to lead a “transitional process” in Zimbabwe.關於星期三他呼籲非洲聯盟的支持，由聯合國領導一個“過渡進程”在津巴布韋。 He also emphasized that Friday’s vote would not be recognized.他還強調說，週五的投票將不會予以承認。 But Zimbabwe’s Electoral Commission has ruled that Tsvangirai’s withdrawal from the election last Sunday was filed too late and has no legal force.但津巴布韋的選舉委員會已裁定，崔凡吉萊的退出選舉上週日被提起為時已晚，並沒有法律效力。 Meanwhile at least 300 Harare residents have taken shelter from the political violence at the South African embassy.同時至少有300名哈拉雷居民已採取住房從政治暴力在南非駐華使館。 Today we host a discussion on Zimbabwe: We’re joined in Washington DC by Professor Gerald Horne.今天，我們東道國討論了津巴布韋：我們正在參加在華盛頓特區，由教授杰拉爾德霍恩。 He is the Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books including “From the Barrel of a Gun: The United States and the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965-1980.” Joining us on the phone from Syracuse, New York is Professor Horace Campbell.他是主席的歷史和非裔美國人研究在休斯敦大學和作者的許多書籍，包括“從槍桿子：美國和戰爭對津巴布韋， 1965年至1980年。 ”加入我們的行列在手機上，從雪城，紐約是教授賀拉斯坎貝爾。 He is Professor of African American Studies and Politics at Syracuse University.他是教授，非裔美國人研究和政治在錫拉丘茲大學。 He has written extensively about Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.他寫了廣泛約泛非主義和津巴布韋。 Gerald Horne , Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books including “From the Barrel of a Gun: The United States and the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965-1980.” 杰拉爾德霍恩 ，主持會議的歷史和非裔美國人研究在休斯敦大學和作者的許多書籍，包括“從槍桿子：美國和戰爭對津巴布韋， 1965年至1980年” 。 Horace Campbell , Professor of African American Studies and Politics at Syracuse University. 賀拉斯坎貝爾教授，非裔美國人研究和政治在錫拉丘茲大學。 He has written extensively about Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.他寫了廣泛約泛非主義和津巴布韋。 Rush Transcript繁忙的謄本AMY GOODMAN: As we move now from Iraq to Zimbabwe, Juan? 艾米古德曼：我們現在從伊拉克到津巴布韋，胡安？ JUAN GONZALES: Well criticism of Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe and the actions of his ruling Zanu PF party is growing. 胡安岡薩雷斯：好批評津巴布韋總統穆加貝和行動，他的執政zanu酚醛黨是越來越大。 The most recent condemnation comes from former South African President Nelson Mandela who mourned the quote tragic failure of leadership in Zimbabwe on Wednesday.最近期的譴責，來自南非前總統納爾遜曼德拉誰哀悼引述悲慘的失敗，領導在津巴布韋對週三。 They were the former leaders first comments on the situation president Bush also criticized Mugabe Wednesday for defying international pressure to cancel a runoff election scheduled for Friday.它們分別是前領導人的首次評論有關情況，布什總統也批評穆加貝週三為無視國際壓力，取消了徑流選舉定於週五。
JUAN GONZALES: Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai won the first round of elections in March but withdrew from the runoff late on Sunday and sought refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harari out of what he says is concern for his safety. 胡安岡薩雷斯：反對派領導人摩根茨萬吉拉伊贏了第一回合的3月的選舉中，但退出徑流下旬對週日和尋求庇護的在荷蘭大使館在哈拉里出什麼樣的，他說是關心他的安全。 On Wednesday he called for the African Union backed the United Nations to lead a quote transitional process in Zimbabwe.關於星期三他呼籲非洲聯盟支持聯合國領導一個報價的過渡進程，在津巴布韋。 He also emphasized that Friday’s vote would not be recognized.他還強調說，週五的投票將不會予以承認。
JUAN GONZALES: But Zimbabwe’s electoral commission has ruled that Tsvangirai’s withdrawal from the election last Sunday was filed too late and has no legal force. 胡安岡薩雷斯：但津巴布韋的選舉委員會已裁定，崔凡吉萊的退出選舉上週日被提起為時已晚，並沒有法律效力。 Meanwhile at least 300 Harari residents have taken shelter from the political violence at the South African embassy.同時至少有300名哈拉里居民已採取住房從政治暴力在南非駐華使館。
AMY GOODMAN: Today, we host a discussion on Zimbabwe. 艾米古德曼：今天，我們東道國討論了津巴布韋。 We’re joined in Washington DC by Professor Gerald Horne, Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books including “From the Barrel of a Gun, the United States in the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965 to 1980.” Joining us on the phone from Syracuse is Professor Horace Campbell, Professor of African American Studies and Politics at Syracuse University in New York, has written extensively about Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.我們正在參加在華盛頓特區，由教授杰拉爾德霍恩，主持會議的歷史和非裔美國人研究在休斯敦大學和作者的許多書籍，包括“從槍桿子，美國在戰爭中對津巴布韋， 1965年至1980年， “加入我們的行列在電話由Syracuse是教授賀拉斯坎貝爾教授，非裔美國人研究和政治在錫拉丘茲大學在紐約，寫了廣泛約泛非主義和津巴布韋。 We welcome you both to Democracy Now!我們歡迎您既要民主！ I want to begin with Gerald Horne in Washington.首先，我要與杰拉爾德霍恩在華盛頓舉行。 Can you talk about what is happening in Zimbabwe and the coverage of it, how we understand what is happening in Zimbabwe in the United States?可以請您談一下什麼是發生在津巴布韋和覆蓋面，我們如何了解什麼是發生在津巴布韋，在美國呢？ GERALD HORNE: Well obviously what is happening in Zimbabwe is quite tragic and I would hope some of the sympathy that is extended to Zimbabwe could be extended as well to other African nations that do not have white minorities. 杰拉爾德霍恩：好 ，顯然正在發生什麼事情，在津巴布韋是相當悲慘的，我希望一些同情，這是擴大到津巴布韋可以延長，以及其他非洲國家不具備的白色少數。 For example, the statement condemning or questioning the Zimbabweans elections emerged from Swaziland, a South African nation that is one of the last absolute monarchies on this small planet.舉例來說，聲明，譴責或質疑津巴布韋的選舉出現了從斯威士蘭，南非的一個民族，是最後一個絕對的君主就這個小星球上。 Some might well question why isn’t Swaziland’s human rights situation being interrogated and investigated?有些人可能會質疑為何，以及是不是史瓦濟蘭的人權狀況正在審問和調查？ A scant year ago in Nigeria, the continent’s giant, you had shambolic elections, had hundreds killed yet that barely registered a blip on the international media. 1很少一年前在尼日利亞，非洲大陸的巨人，你曾shambolic選舉中，已擁有幾十萬個死亡然而，這僅僅註冊的位置亮點，對國際媒體的。 At least not in the North Atlantic.至少不會是在北大西洋。 Many talk, perhaps understandably, about the fact the President Mugabe has served as President since 1980, but what about Omar Bongo of Gabon, a close ally of the US, an oil-rich country in West Africa, which of course, he has served as president since 1967?許多談話，或許可以理解的是，有關事實上，總統穆加貝一直擔任總統自1980年以來，但什麼奧馬爾邦戈，加蓬的親密盟友，美國，一個盛產石油的國家在西部非洲，當然，他曾任職作為總統自1967年以來？ 13 years before Mugabe came into power. 13年前，穆加貝總統上台執政。 I mean, I could go on in this vain, but I think the fact that thousands were killed in Zimbabwe in the 1980’s and yet, he received a virtual knighthood from Queen Elizabeth and received an honorary degree from Massachusetts, and yet, today in 2008, he is a subject of international scorn after of course he expropriates some white farmers, really speaks of profound racism in terms of how this issue has been covered in the North Atlantic media.我的意思是，我可以繼續在這方面徒勞的，但我認為，事實上，數以千計的人死亡，在津巴布韋在1980年的，然而，他收到了虛擬騎士的名銜從女王伊麗莎白二世和收到的名譽學位，馬薩諸塞州，然而，今天在2008年，他是一個主題的國際鄙薄後，當然他expropriates一些白人農場主，真的談了深刻的種族主義而言，如何這個問題已涵蓋在北大西洋的媒體。 JUAN GONZALES: Horace Campbell, I want to ask about this issue. 胡安岡薩雷斯：賀拉斯坎貝爾，我想問問這個問題。 It does seem that the western media did not focus on Zimbabwe at all until the expropriations began of land.但這似乎是西方媒體沒有重點就在津巴布韋的所有，直到開始徵用土地。 But does that deal with—the land of the white-minority there-–but does that deal with the underlying class conflicts that are obviously clearly percolating in reaching ahead right now in the country?但是否處理-土地的白領，有少數民族-但這是否處理背後的階級矛盾，這顯然是清楚滲濾在深遠的未來的權利，現在在該國的？ HORACE CAMPBELL: Well, thank you for having me on the show. 賀拉斯坎貝爾：好 ，謝謝你為我上顯示。 First of all, I would say this platform on Democracy Now!首先，我會說，在這個平台上對民主的現在！ is a platform for the progressives, the left, and those who are involved in the peace movement.是一個平台，為進步，左側，和那些誰是涉及在和平運動中。 Our discussions on what is going on in Zimbabwe or any other part of Africa should be guided by how our solidarity with the peoples of Zimbabwe, with the oppressed workers of Southern Africa, and in all parts of Africa can assist our own struggle in this country against all forms of oppression.我們在討論是怎麼回事，在津巴布韋或任何其他的一部分，非洲應遵循怎樣我們的聲援，與人民的津巴布韋，與被壓迫的工人南部非洲，並在所有非洲部分地區，可幫助我們自己的鬥爭，在這個國家反對一切形式的壓迫。 And so, comparing Zimbabwean’s oppression with other oppression in Africa does not excuse the oppression of the Zimbabweans people by any means.因此，比較，津巴布韋的壓迫與其他壓迫在非洲並不為藉口，壓迫的津巴布韋人以任何手段。 I think Gerald is very right about these oppressions across Africa, but organizations in this country that are in solidarity with the peace movement across the world ,that are in solidarity with the Zimbabwe people, should take the cue from the Congress of South African Trade Union that is calling for a blockade of Zimbabwe because of the oppression.我認為杰拉德是非常正確的對這些壓迫的非洲各地，但組織在這個國家是在團結與和平運動在世界各地，這是在團結與津巴布韋人民，應採取線索，從國會南非工會這是要求進行封鎖，津巴布韋，因為壓迫。 And I think what distinguished Zimbabwe from those countries that Gerald speaks about is that none of those countries is representing themselves as being in the forefront of liberation.我認為傑出的津巴布韋從那些國家的杰拉爾德談到的是，沒有這些國家是代表自己，作為正處於前列解放。 Robert Mugabe and Zanupe started out like they were Lumumba in the Congo.穆加貝和zanupe開始像他們盧蒙巴在剛果的。 They ended up like Mubutu, killing from the people, arrested opposition leaders, killing people, calling homosexual pigs and dogs, and killing hundreds, tens of thousands of people.他們結束了一樣， mubutu ，造成從人，被捕的反對派領袖，殺害人民，呼籲同性戀豬和狗，和殺害數百人，成千上萬的人。 18% of the Zimbabwean people are unemployed. 18 ％的津巴布韋人失業。 While the stock exchange is the most successful in Africa.而證券交易所是最成功的是在非洲。 We on the left, in the peace movement, we acknowledge that George Bush nor Brown have any moral authority to criticize Zimbabwe because of the unjust war that they’re fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.我們在左邊，在和平運動中，我們承認，布什也不是布朗有任何道德權威來批評津巴布韋，因為不公正的戰爭，他們正在戰鬥在伊拉克和阿富汗。 But having said that, we on the left and the progressives, we must take the moral leadership in having solidarity with those opposition leaders, those workers, those human rights workers in Zimbabwe and Southern Africa who are being oppressed by the Mugabe government.不過，話雖如此說，我們在左邊和進步，我們必須採取的道德領導，有團結與這些反對派領袖，那些工人，那些人權工作者在津巴布韋和南部非洲誰正在受壓迫，由穆加貝政府。 AMY GOODMAN: Your response, Gerald Horne? 艾米古德曼：您的回應後，杰拉爾德霍恩？ GERALD HORNE: Well I think there is very much to recommend with what Horace Campbell said. 杰拉爾德霍恩 ：我覺得是有很大的建議與什麼賀拉斯坎貝爾說。 As a taxpayer to this government here in Washington, my first approach must be this regime of George W. Bush.作為一個納稅人，政府在這裡在華盛頓，我第一次的做法，必須這個政權的喬治W布什。 And I think we have to question the hypocrisy of George Bush who has engaged in questionable elections in Florida and Ohio, questioning the legitimacy of the elections in Zimbabwe.我認為我們有問題的虛偽布什誰在從事可疑的選舉在佛羅里達州和俄亥俄州，質疑選舉的合法性在津巴布韋。 More than that, if the situation in Zimbabwe is so terrible, and I agree it is, why is it that the Bush administration continues to send undocumented Zimbabwe workers back to Zimbabwe?更有什者，如果津巴布韋的局勢是如此的可怕，我同意這是為什麼它說，布什政府繼續向無證津巴布韋工人回到津巴布韋？ There’s been talk about a so- called genocide unfolding in Zimbabwe, yet, you see the Gordon Brown administration in London not giving asylum to Zimbabwe workers who are exiled now in London.還有的被談論了所謂的種族滅絕開展在津巴布韋，然而，您會看到財政大臣布朗在倫敦當局沒有給予庇護，津巴布韋工人誰是現在流亡在倫敦。 We talk about the Mugabe regime, but just the other day it was revealed that Anglo American, the major transnational corporation with close South African ties and headquarters in London, is about to make a $400 million investment in Zimbabwe.我們談論穆加貝政權，而只是另一天據透露， Anglo American的，主要的跨國公司與南非密切的聯繫和總部在倫敦，大約使4億美元的投資，津巴布韋。 Barclay’s bank is in Zimbabwe.巴克萊銀行是在津巴布韋。 Rio Tinto-Zinc, the major mineral conglomerate is in Zimbabwe. Rio Tinto的鋅，主要礦產礫岩是在津巴布韋。 It seems to me in the first place, we in the North Atlantic should be focusing on these kinds of contradictions that we can affect and as the African National Congress has said, leave Zimbabwe to the Zimbabwean people themselves.在我看來，擺在首位，我們在北大西洋應側重於這些種矛盾，我們可以影響和南非非洲人國民大會曾表示，離開津巴布韋向津巴布韋人民自己。 AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to go to a break and we’ll come back to this discussion. 艾米古德曼：我們正在準備去休息，我們會回來，這討論。 Our guests in Washington, Professor.我們的客人在華盛頓，教授。 Gerald Horne, Professor of African Studies at the University of Houston, he has lived in Zimbabwe, Professor Horace Campbell also joins us, professor of African- American studies at Syracuse University.杰拉爾德霍恩教授，非洲研究在休斯敦大學，他一直生活在津巴布韋，教授賀拉斯坎貝爾也加入我們，教授，非洲裔美國人的研究在錫拉丘茲大學。 We will be back with them both in a moment.我們將回到與他們都在一個時刻。 [music break] [音樂小休] AMY GOODMAN: This is democracy Now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. 艾米古德曼：這是民主的現在！ ， democracynow.org ，戰爭與和平的報告。 We’re talking about Zimbabwe.我們談論的津巴布韋。 Professor Gerald Horne of the University of Houston is in Washington, Professor Horace Campbell of African American Studies and Political Science of Syracuse University is speaking to us from Syracuse.教授杰拉爾德霍恩的休斯敦大學是在華盛頓，教授賀拉斯坎貝爾非裔美國人的研究和政治學的錫拉丘茲大學是講我們從錫拉丘茲。 If you could respond, Professor Campbell, to what Gerald Horne said before the break.如果您能回應，坎貝爾教授，什麼杰拉爾德霍恩說，前打破。 HORACE CAMPBELL: Yes, I want to reiterate a point that any kind of political work we do on Zimbabwe should assist us in educating our people here so that when the Zimbabwe political leadership represents itself to say that it is being persecuted because it expropriated the land of the former white settlers, we have to interrogate what did the expropriation of the land mean for the millions of Zimbabweans workers, small farmers. 賀拉斯坎貝爾 ：是的 ，我要重申一點，任何形式的政治工作，我們對津巴布韋應該協助我們在教育我們的人民在這裡，所以，當津巴布韋的政治領導，代表本身說這是受迫害的，因為它被徵用土地對前白人定居者，我們要審問了些什麼，徵用的土地，意味著以百萬計的津巴布韋工人，小農。 It is very clear that the Zimbabwean people needed to reclaim the land from the white settlers.這是非常清楚地表明，津巴布韋人民需要收回的土地從白人定居者。 But the Mugabe government, when he was receiving his knighthood from the british government, never negotiated about the land because throughout the period from 1980- 1992, Zimbabwe had the legal powers to be able to set in motion the possibilities for strengthening the working peoples, the farm workers, the women, the plantation and agricultural workers.但穆加貝政府，當他收到他的騎士榮譽，從英國政府，從來沒有談判的有關土地，因為整個期間，從1980年-1 992年，津巴布韋的法律權力，以便能夠設置在議案的可能性，為加強民族工作，農場工人，婦女，種植園和農業勞動者。 And hen we speak about land, we must understand that whether the land is owned by white farmers are black farmers, the fundamental productivity on the land emanates from the labor of the working people—working people.母雞和我們談論土地，我們必須明白，無論土地是國有，由白人農場主是黑人農民，最根本的生產力，土地源自勞動工作的人-勞動人民。 So our task is how is it we defend the working people of Zimbabwe?因此，我們的任務是如何是我們保衛工作，津巴布韋人民？ The hundreds of thousands of workers who live on the conditions of wretchedness, who have been exploited by the black capitalist farmers, who are in the Zimbabwean government just as the whites have done.成千上萬的工人，誰的生活條件wretchedness ，誰已利用黑資本主義的農民，誰是在津巴布韋政府一樣，白人有工作要做。 So any kind of transition in Zimbabwe must involve strengthening the rights of the workers, the women, and the use in Zimbabwe.因此，任何形式的過渡，在津巴布韋，必須加強涉及權利的工人，婦女，和使用在津巴布韋。 I think that what Gerald said should throw away all of the talk about Mugabe been against imperialism because it was very clear that anglo- American, Barclay bank, and Rio-Tinto and diamond dealers have made billions of dollars while Mugabe was talking about the land.我認為這是什麼杰拉爾德說，應該扔掉所有的談論穆加貝一直反對帝國主義，因為它是很清楚，英美，巴克萊銀行，以及裡約廷托和鑽石交易商已取得了數十億美元的同時，穆加貝是在談論土地。 And what we’re calling for is for any transitional period in Zimbabwe to be one where there is intervention by the African Union so that the billions that have been carried out by the ruling elements in Zimbabwe, that we do not have them carried out repression of the workers with impunity and then stealing the money as they have done the past 8-10 years.和我們所要求的是任何的過渡期，在津巴布韋是一個有干預由非洲聯盟，使數十億已進行的由執政黨分子在津巴布韋，我們沒有他們進行鎮壓的工人與有罪不罰的現象，然後竊取金錢，因為他們也做了過去的8-10年。 JUAN GONZALES: Gerald Horne, I’d like to ask you. 胡安岡薩雷斯：杰拉爾德霍恩，我想要問你。 Obviously Mugabe has been an icon and a hero, a giant in terms of the liberation movements in Africa for decades.顯然穆加貝一直一個圖標和一個英雄，一個巨人在條款解放運動在非洲數十年之久。 But your sense now, do you believe that he still represents any forces for progress in Africa or has he gradually transformed himself into a dictator?但您的意識，現在，你認為他仍代表任何勢力，為非洲的進步，或有他自己逐步改造成為一個獨裁者？ GERALD HORNE: Well, I think that president Mugabe is a force to be reckoned with in Zimbabwe.杰拉爾德霍恩 ：好的 ，我認為穆加貝總統是一支不可忽視的在津巴布韋。 And I agree with those leaders in the region who feel that he and his party must be contented with if there is to be a settlement of this controversy in Zimbabwe.我同意這些領導人在該地區的誰覺得他和他的黨必須知足，如果有是要解決這一爭議在津巴布韋。 I should also say that with regard to professor Campbell, I’m here not to carry a brief on OPS , but they have argued they did not move on land reform before 1994, ie the date of the South African elections, so as not to unsettle the situation in neighboring South Africa, which of course has outstanding land claims of its own.我也應該說，對於坎貝爾教授，我在這裡不進行簡短的關於老年退休金計劃 ，但他們辯稱，他們沒有提出對土地改革在1994年前，即日起，南非的選舉，以便不動搖的情況在周邊南非，其中當然有優秀的土地要求其自身的。 We all know there are more white farmers killed in South Africa than have been killed in Zimbabwe.我們都知道，有更多的白人農場主殺害，在南非比已被殺害在津巴布韋。 And likewise, there are outstanding land claims in neighboring Namibia as well.同樣地，有傑出的土地要求在鄰國納米比亞以及。 I think it’s understandable why there has been a focus on on Zanu PF, but standing in the wings of the opposition of the MDC and sadly, unfortunately, there has not been considerable focus on them such as their leaders, Roy Bennet, a top leader, a former major land owner in Zimbabwe who of course throttled an African leader on the floor of the Zimbabweans parliament—I would of thought that kind of behavior would have ended in independence in 1980.我覺得這是可以理解的，所以一直把重點放在對zanu公積金，但常委會在機翼的反對，該委員會和可悲的是，不幸的是，一直沒有相當的重點放在他們如他們的領導人，羅伊貝納特，最高領導人，前主要的土地所有者在津巴布韋誰當然扼殺一個非洲領導人在地板上的津巴布韋議會-我想的思路，這樣的行為會已經結束，在獨立，於1 980年。 You have other leading Rhodesians in the leadership of MDC .您有其他領導rhodesians在領導民運 。 One thing that worries many of us is that if MDC does come to power, there will be a split and quite frankly, they will pave the way for the rise of certain retrograde elements like Roy Bennet come back into power.一件事的憂慮，我們很多人的是，如果民運不來的權力，會有一個分裂和坦白說，他們會鋪平道路，崛起的大倒退，某些元素像羅伊貝納特回來執政。 In some ways, MDC , a trade union-led movement, is akin to solidarity in Poland which of course paved the way for the present right wing in Poland to come to power in Warsaw.在某些方面， 人力發展委員會 ，工會主導的運動，類似於團結在波蘭這當然鋪平了道路，對於目前的右翼勢力在波蘭來的權力在華沙舉行。 So we have to be careful when we try to butt in to the internal affairs of a sovereign state.因此，我們必須要小心，當我們嘗試對接，以在內部一個主權國家的內政。 I think our energies would be best served by putting pressure on this government here in Washington and its comical sidekick in London.我認為我們的精力將最好的服務施加壓力，這個政府在這裡在華盛頓和其滑稽sidekick在倫敦。 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Horace Campbell? 艾米古德曼：坎貝爾教授賀拉斯？ HORACE CAMPBELL: The intellectual subservience of the MDC and the leadership ofthe MDC is clear to most workers in Southern Africa. 賀拉斯坎貝爾 ：智力subservience的民運和領導之民運很清楚，大多數工人在南部非洲。 But this point in the history of Zimbabwe, the MDC doesn’t have political power.不過，這一點在歷史的津巴布韋，該委員會並沒有政治權力。 The social forces that are organized in Zimbabwe against the government have thrown their weight behind the MDC at the present moment.社會力量舉辦，在津巴布韋，對政府有投擲他們的體重背後的民運目前。 The Women of Zimbabwe rise, these are independent organizations, Padari, the workers, agricultural and plantation workers.婦女津巴布韋上升，這些都是獨立的組織， padari ，工人，農業和種植園工人。 I do not think—we do not have the right to say to the Zimbabwean workers that your under oppression and therefore, we should decide for you because of the history of Mugabe’s relationship to the liberation movement, 28 years ago, then we should be saying to you what your choices should be.我不認為-我們沒有權利說，津巴布韋的工人，您的壓迫下，因此，我們應該決定你是因為歷史的穆加比的關係的解放運動， 2 8年前，我們便應該說你是什麼您的選擇應。 In Southern Africa, the Congress of South African Trade Union movement has called for a blockade of the Zimbabwean government and is the Zimbabwe leadership and the Congress of South African Trade Union which is the largest trade union movement in Southern Africa is a movement which is calling for the isolation of Mugabe government.在南部非洲，國會南非的工會運動，呼籲封鎖津巴布韋政府和津巴布韋的領導和代表大會，南非工會，這是世界上最大的工會運動在南部非洲是一種運動，這是呼喚為孤立穆加貝政府。 What we agree with Gerald is on as the falling—the land question in Southern Africa is an urgent question in the media, in south Africa, and in Zimbabwe.什麼我們同意杰拉爾德是對作為降土地問題在南部非洲是一個迫切的問題，在新聞媒體，在南非，在津巴布韋。 But having said that, we must learn lessons from Zimbabwe.不過，話雖如此說，我們必須從中吸取教訓，津巴布韋。 To say that when land his been reclaimed it should not be reclaimed for rich, black farmers to replace white farmers.說時，他的土地被開墾，不應該填海豐富，黑人農民，以取代白人農場主。 Land when it is being reclaimed in South Africa or in Nambia should be reclaimed in a condition where there is health and safety conditions for the working people’s.土地時，它是填海在南非或在納米比亞應填在一個條件那裡的衛生和安全條件，為勞動人民的。 So yes, we should take lessons from Zimbabwe and we should introduce new politics in Southern Africa that is coming out of the politics of reconciliation.所以是的，我們應採取的教訓，從津巴布韋和我們應該引進新的政治，在南部非洲是走出來的政治和解。 That no concept of victory should be victory which gives power to one group over another there should be ways in which the transition towards a new political dispersion—in south Africa it is one that strengthens the producing classes, the small workers, farmers, students.沒有概念的勝利應該是勝利，讓權力一組另一應該有辦法，使過渡邁向一個新的政治色散，在南非這是一個加強生產班，小工人，農民，學生。 And these are the forces that have been repressed, brutalized, the trade union leaders that are in jail right now in Zimbabwe should be released.這些都是力量，已壓制，摧殘，工會領袖是在監獄中的權利，現在在津巴布韋應該被釋放。 Opposition leaders should be released.反對派領導人應該被釋放。 Women should be released.婦女應該被釋放。 Human rights workers should be released.人權工作者應予以釋放。 So that yes, we can criticize the leadership of the MDC and I have done so in my writing, in my book, “Reclaiming Zimbabwe” but the government of Zimbabwe must now arise in a situation where we provide leadership in a condition where 80% of the people are unemployed, where women have been persecuted as prostitutes when a walk on the streets.這樣的話，我們可以批評的領導民運 ，我已經這樣做在我的寫作，在我的書“ ，領回津巴布韋” ，但津巴布韋政府現在必須出現的情況下，我們所提供的領導在一個條件的80 ％把人民的失業，那裡的婦女有被迫害充當妓女時，漫步於街頭。 Were homosexuals have been called pigs and dogs and where men go around trying to have sexual relations with young virgins saying this would prevent HIV/ AIDS .被同性戀者被稱為豬和狗和男子四出試圖發生性關係，與年輕處女說，這將防止艾滋病毒/ 艾滋病 。 We need a new political leadership to go against this kind of backwardness that came out of the kind of patriotic leadership that we had for the past 28 years.我們需要一個新的政治領導，違背了這種落後出來的那種愛國的領導，我們曾在過去的28年。 AMY GOODMAN: We wanted to bring South African archbishop Desmond Tutu into this. 艾米古德曼：我們希望把南非的德斯蒙德圖圖大主教到這一點。 He also came out forcefully against the violence and intimidation in Zimbabwe speaking in Cape Town Tuesday, who warned Mugabe should bend to international pressure or could risk facing universal sanctions and could risk facing an international criminal court.他還出來，有力地反對暴力和恐嚇事件，在津巴布韋談到在南非開普敦週二，誰警告穆加貝應該屈服於國際壓力，或可能面臨的風險普遍制裁，並可能面臨的風險，一個國際刑事法院。
AMY GOODMAN: Archbishop Desmond Tutu Gerald Horne, your response both to Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Horace Campbell. 艾米古德曼：德斯蒙德圖圖大主教杰拉爾德霍恩，您的反應既要德斯蒙德圖圖大主教和賀拉斯坎貝爾。 GERALD HORNE: Well obviously we have enormous respect for Archbishop Desmond Tutu. 杰拉爾德霍恩 ：好，我們顯然有著巨大的尊重德斯蒙德圖圖大主教。 But I must return to the question that should occupy us in the North Atlantic.但我必須返回到的問題應佔有我們在北大西洋。 Which is why is it the Zimbabwe gets so much focus and attention on this side of the Atlantic when Paul Biya, the leader of Cameron a few weeks ago basically named himself President for life and it barely registers a blip?這就是為什麼它的津巴布韋獲得了這麼多的重點和注意這個大西洋彼岸時，保羅比亞，領導人金馬倫在數星期前，基本上命名自己的終身總統和它勉強選民登記冊位置亮點呢？ Similar situation unfolding in Uganda with Yoweri Museveni.類似的情況，開展在烏干達與穆塞韋尼。 I think part of the reason, not only the race and racism question, there’s also the question that many of the former Rhodesian have kith and kin on the side of the Atlantic.我認為部分原因，不只是種族和種族主義問題，也有問題，許多前rhodesian有kith和親人對大西洋彼岸的。 The spouse of Henry Kissinger, the former US Secretary of State.配偶基辛格，美國前國務卿。 The spouse of Chester Crocker, the former assistant Secretary of State for Africa under the Reagan administration.配偶切斯特克羅克，前國務院助理國務卿，為非洲下，美國裡根政府。 Even some distant relatives of George Washington for whom the city of which I’m sitting is named.甚至一些遠親喬治華盛頓為誰城市，其中我坐在命名。 Ian Smith, the former Rhodesian leader of course has relatives in San Diego.伊安史密斯，前rhodesian領導人當然有親屬在聖地牙哥的。 There were hundreds if not thousands of white mercenaries who flocked to Rhodesia in the 1970’s and 1980’s to fight against liberation of that particular country.有數百如果沒有成千上萬的白人僱傭軍誰蜂擁而至羅德西亞在1970和1980年的打擊解放特定國家。 And it befuddles and baffles me why this kind of basic historical background is not integrated into the conversation, integrated into the discourse on Zimbabwe.它befuddles和擋板我為什麼這種基本的歷史背景，是不是融入談話中，融入話語對津巴布韋。 I think it gives a very bad impression on the African continent which leads many Africans to consider their only focus on the North Atlantic is on Zimbabwe because there is a white minority and that perhaps explains to why there has been such a lethargy in responding to some of the human rights violations that are unfolding in Zimbabwe.我認為這給了一個很壞的印象，在非洲大陸上，導致許多非洲人考慮他們的只集中在北大西洋的是津巴布韋，因為是有少數白人和，這也許說明了為什麼有這麼嗜睡在回應部分對侵犯人權的行為展開在津巴布韋。 And until that kind of situation is rectified, I dare say there will continue to be an uncivil situation in Zimbabwe.及直至該種情況是，糾正，我敢說有將繼續成為不文明津巴布韋的局勢。 JUAN GONZALES: Gerald, all that being true and we clearly recognize that disparity in approach and coverage, back in 2005, there were massive forced relocations of hundreds of thousands of people by the Mugabe government that really stunned people, even here in a progressive community of the United States who have supported Mugabe and the past. 胡安岡薩雷斯：杰拉爾德，所有這些正在真實而我們清醒地認識到，差距在方法和範圍，早在2005年，有龐大的強迫遷移，成千上萬的人，由穆加貝總統的政府真的震驚的人，即使是在這裡一個進步社會對美國誰支持穆加貝和過去。 Your response to those relocations and again to the issue of whether the government has increasingly become iron handed and dictatorial in dealing with its own people?您的回應，這些遷移，並再次向的問題，政府是否已越來越成為鐵移交和獨裁，在處理與自己的人民？ GERALD HORNE: Well, those dislocations were tragic and unfortunate.杰拉爾德霍恩 ：好的 ，那些被混亂的悲慘和不幸。 I know about them because I hail from St. Louis, Missouri.我知道他們，因為我冰雹從密蘇里州聖路易斯市。 And of course it used to be said, with regard to that city and many other cities, that urban renewal meant negro removal.和當然它用來說，關於這個城市和其他許多城市，市區重建是指黑人遣送離境。 That kind of situation is not unique to Zimbabwe.這種情況並非獨有，津巴布韋。 In Senegal as we speak, there been tens of thousands of Africans who have been displaced because of a civil conflict there reaches back 25 years.在塞內加爾，我們發言的時候，有數以萬計的非洲人誰已流離失所，因為一個民間那裡的衝突達到回25年。 It has barely registered a blip on the international press screen.它幾乎沒有註冊的位置亮點，在國際上的新聞畫面。 So yes, those situations that are referred to in Zimbabwe are quite tragic and they need to be criticized as well as other analogous situations.所以是的，這些情況是指在津巴布韋是相當悲慘，他們需要被人批評為，以及其他類似的情況。 And when those analogous situations are not criticized, it basically provides fodder for those who would like to downplay the situation in Zimbabwe.而當這些類似的情況是不批評，它基本上提供了飼料對於誰想淡化津巴布韋的局勢。 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Horace Campbell, we just have about 30 seconds, your response and your summary? 艾米古德曼：教授賀拉斯坎貝爾，我們只是約30秒，您的反應和您的摘要嗎？ HORACE CAMPBELL: My response is that the government of Senegal, the government of Cameroon does not represent itself as a liberation government. 賀拉斯坎貝爾：我的回應是，政府對塞內加爾，喀麥隆政府並不代表本身作為一個解放政府。 The Zimbabwean government is very aware of the racism that exists in North America.津巴布韋政府是非常清楚的種族主義存在，在北美。 And it is exploiting that racism and the antiracist sentiment among Africans in the west in order to legitimize its repression on the people.這是剝削，種族主義和antiracist情緒的非洲人，在西方，為了合法化，其對鎮壓人民的。 The government of Zimbabwe at this moment is illegitimate we must avoid war at all costs.津巴布韋政府在這一刻是不合法的，我們必須避免戰爭，不惜一切代價。 Mugabe says only god can remove him and he will go to war.穆加貝說，只有上帝可以刪除，他會走向戰爭。 At present, he is at war with the Zimbabwe people and we must end the silence in the progressive and pan-African community against this type of manipulation and repression in the name of liberation.目前，他是在戰爭與津巴布韋人民和我們必須結束沉默，在逐步和泛非社會對這種類型的操控和鎮壓，在名稱的解放。 AMY GOODMAN: We will leave it there. 艾米古德曼：我們會離開它。 Professor Horace Campbell of Syracuse University and Professor Gerald Horne of Houston University, thank you for joining us.坎貝爾教授賀拉斯的錫拉丘茲大學和教授杰拉爾德霍恩的休斯頓大學，謝謝你加入我們的行列。 That does it for today’s show, if you want a copy of the show go to democracynow.org, tomorrow night I’ll be at Des Moines, Iowa at Simpsons College, tomorrow morning at ten in Fairfield Iowa at the library, and Tuesday night the Aspen Ideas Festival.這是否為今天的表演，如果您想要的副本顯示到democracynow.org ，明天晚上我將在Des Moines的，在艾奧瓦州辛普森學院，明天上午十在愛荷華州費爾菲爾德在圖書館，和週二晚阿斯本節的想法。 See More: 看到更多的： World News 世界新聞 | Translations 翻譯               Free Newsletter 免費通訊 Related News 相關新聞
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