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Zimbabwe and the Question of Imperialism津巴布韦和帝国主义的问题 Friday, June 27th, 2008 周五， 2008年6月27日 Listen to the Interview 听采访 Criticism of Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe and the actions of his ruling Zanu PF party is growing.批评津巴布韦总统穆加贝和行动，他的执政zanu酚醛党是越来越大。 The most recent condemnation comes from former South African President Nelson Mandela, who mourned the “tragic failure of leadership” in Zimbabwe on Wednesday.最近期的谴责，来自南非前总统纳尔逊曼德拉，谁哀悼“悲惨失败的领导者”在津巴布韦对周三。 They were the former leader’s first comments on the situation.它们分别是前领导人的首次评论有关情况。 President Bush also criticized Mugabe Wednesday for defying international pressure to cancel a run-off election scheduled for Friday.布什总统也批评穆加贝周三为无视国际压力，取消了决胜选举定于周五。 Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai won the first round of elections in March but withdrew from the run off late on Sunday and sought refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harare out of what he says is concern for his safety.反对派领导人摩根茨万吉拉伊赢了第一回合的3月的选举中，但退出运行过晚对周日和寻求庇护的在荷兰大使馆在哈拉雷出什么样的，他说是关心他的安全。 On Wednesday he called for the African Union backed by the United Nations, to lead a “transitional process” in Zimbabwe.关于星期三他呼吁非洲联盟的支持，由联合国领导一个“过渡进程”在津巴布韦。 He also emphasized that Friday’s vote would not be recognized.他还强调说，周五的投票将不会予以承认。 But Zimbabwe’s Electoral Commission has ruled that Tsvangirai’s withdrawal from the election last Sunday was filed too late and has no legal force.但津巴布韦的选举委员会已裁定，崔凡吉莱的退出选举上周日被提起为时已晚，并没有法律效力。 Meanwhile at least 300 Harare residents have taken shelter from the political violence at the South African embassy.同时至少有300名哈拉雷居民已采取住房从政治暴力在南非驻华使馆。 Today we host a discussion on Zimbabwe: We’re joined in Washington DC by Professor Gerald Horne.今天，我们东道国讨论了津巴布韦：我们正在参加在华盛顿特区，由教授杰拉尔德霍恩。 He is the Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books including “From the Barrel of a Gun: The United States and the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965-1980.” Joining us on the phone from Syracuse, New York is Professor Horace Campbell.他是主席的历史和非裔美国人研究在休斯敦大学和作者的许多书籍，包括“从枪杆子：美国和战争对津巴布韦， 1965年至1980年。 ”加入我们的行列在手机上，从雪城，纽约是教授贺拉斯坎贝尔。 He is Professor of African American Studies and Politics at Syracuse University.他是教授，非裔美国人研究和政治在锡拉丘兹大学。 He has written extensively about Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.他写了广泛约泛非主义和津巴布韦。 Gerald Horne , Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books including “From the Barrel of a Gun: The United States and the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965-1980.” 杰拉尔德霍恩 ，主持会议的历史和非裔美国人研究在休斯敦大学和作者的许多书籍，包括“从枪杆子：美国和战争对津巴布韦， 1965年至1980年” 。 Horace Campbell , Professor of African American Studies and Politics at Syracuse University. 贺拉斯坎贝尔教授，非裔美国人研究和政治在锡拉丘兹大学。 He has written extensively about Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.他写了广泛约泛非主义和津巴布韦。 Rush Transcript繁忙的誊本AMY GOODMAN: As we move now from Iraq to Zimbabwe, Juan? 艾米古德曼：我们现在从伊拉克到津巴布韦，胡安？ JUAN GONZALES: Well criticism of Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe and the actions of his ruling Zanu PF party is growing. 胡安冈萨雷斯：好批评津巴布韦总统穆加贝和行动，他的执政zanu酚醛党是越来越大。 The most recent condemnation comes from former South African President Nelson Mandela who mourned the quote tragic failure of leadership in Zimbabwe on Wednesday.最近期的谴责，来自南非前总统纳尔逊曼德拉谁哀悼引述悲惨的失败，领导在津巴布韦对周三。 They were the former leaders first comments on the situation president Bush also criticized Mugabe Wednesday for defying international pressure to cancel a runoff election scheduled for Friday.它们分别是前领导人的首次评论有关情况，布什总统也批评穆加贝周三为无视国际压力，取消了径流选举定于周五。
JUAN GONZALES: Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai won the first round of elections in March but withdrew from the runoff late on Sunday and sought refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harari out of what he says is concern for his safety. 胡安冈萨雷斯：反对派领导人摩根茨万吉拉伊赢了第一回合的3月的选举中，但退出径流下旬对周日和寻求庇护的在荷兰大使馆在哈拉里出什么样的，他说是关心他的安全。 On Wednesday he called for the African Union backed the United Nations to lead a quote transitional process in Zimbabwe.关于星期三他呼吁非洲联盟支持联合国领导一个报价的过渡进程，在津巴布韦。 He also emphasized that Friday’s vote would not be recognized.他还强调说，周五的投票将不会予以承认。
JUAN GONZALES: But Zimbabwe’s electoral commission has ruled that Tsvangirai’s withdrawal from the election last Sunday was filed too late and has no legal force. 胡安冈萨雷斯：但津巴布韦的选举委员会已裁定，崔凡吉莱的退出选举上周日被提起为时已晚，并没有法律效力。 Meanwhile at least 300 Harari residents have taken shelter from the political violence at the South African embassy.同时至少有300名哈拉里居民已采取住房从政治暴力在南非驻华使馆。
AMY GOODMAN: Today, we host a discussion on Zimbabwe. 艾米古德曼：今天，我们东道国讨论了津巴布韦。 We’re joined in Washington DC by Professor Gerald Horne, Chair of History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books including “From the Barrel of a Gun, the United States in the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965 to 1980.” Joining us on the phone from Syracuse is Professor Horace Campbell, Professor of African American Studies and Politics at Syracuse University in New York, has written extensively about Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.我们正在参加在华盛顿特区，由教授杰拉尔德霍恩，主持会议的历史和非裔美国人研究在休斯敦大学和作者的许多书籍，包括“从枪杆子，美国在战争中对津巴布韦， 1965年至1980年， “加入我们的行列在电话由Syracuse是教授贺拉斯坎贝尔教授，非裔美国人研究和政治在锡拉丘兹大学在纽约，写了广泛约泛非主义和津巴布韦。 We welcome you both to Democracy Now!我们欢迎您既要民主！ I want to begin with Gerald Horne in Washington.首先，我要与杰拉尔德霍恩在华盛顿举行。 Can you talk about what is happening in Zimbabwe and the coverage of it, how we understand what is happening in Zimbabwe in the United States?可以请您谈一下什么是发生在津巴布韦和覆盖面，我们如何了解什么是发生在津巴布韦，在美国呢？ GERALD HORNE: Well obviously what is happening in Zimbabwe is quite tragic and I would hope some of the sympathy that is extended to Zimbabwe could be extended as well to other African nations that do not have white minorities. 杰拉尔德霍恩：好 ，显然正在发生什么事情，在津巴布韦是相当悲惨的，我希望一些同情，这是扩大到津巴布韦可以延长，以及其他非洲国家不具备的白色少数。 For example, the statement condemning or questioning the Zimbabweans elections emerged from Swaziland, a South African nation that is one of the last absolute monarchies on this small planet.举例来说，声明，谴责或质疑津巴布韦的选举出现了从斯威士兰，南非的一个民族，是最后一个绝对的君主就这个小星球上。 Some might well question why isn’t Swaziland’s human rights situation being interrogated and investigated?有些人可能会质疑为何，以及是不是史瓦济兰的人权状况正在审问和调查？ A scant year ago in Nigeria, the continent’s giant, you had shambolic elections, had hundreds killed yet that barely registered a blip on the international media. 1很少一年前在尼日利亚，非洲大陆的巨人，你曾shambolic选举中，已拥有几十万个死亡然而，这仅仅注册的位置亮点，对国际媒体的。 At least not in the North Atlantic.至少不会是在北大西洋。 Many talk, perhaps understandably, about the fact the President Mugabe has served as President since 1980, but what about Omar Bongo of Gabon, a close ally of the US, an oil-rich country in West Africa, which of course, he has served as president since 1967?许多谈话，或许可以理解的是，有关事实上，总统穆加贝一直担任总统自1980年以来，但什么奥马尔邦戈，加蓬的亲密盟友，美国，一个盛产石油的国家在西部非洲，当然，他曾任职作为总统自1967年以来？ 13 years before Mugabe came into power. 13年前，穆加贝总统上台执政。 I mean, I could go on in this vain, but I think the fact that thousands were killed in Zimbabwe in the 1980’s and yet, he received a virtual knighthood from Queen Elizabeth and received an honorary degree from Massachusetts, and yet, today in 2008, he is a subject of international scorn after of course he expropriates some white farmers, really speaks of profound racism in terms of how this issue has been covered in the North Atlantic media.我的意思是，我可以继续在这方面徒劳的，但我认为，事实上，数以千计的人死亡，在津巴布韦在1980年的，然而，他收到了虚拟骑士的名衔从女王伊丽莎白二世和收到的名誉学位，马萨诸塞州，然而，今天在2008年，他是一个主题的国际鄙薄后，当然他expropriates一些白人农场主，真的谈了深刻的种族主义而言，如何这个问题已涵盖在北大西洋的媒体。 JUAN GONZALES: Horace Campbell, I want to ask about this issue. 胡安冈萨雷斯：贺拉斯坎贝尔，我想问问这个问题。 It does seem that the western media did not focus on Zimbabwe at all until the expropriations began of land.但这似乎是西方媒体没有重点就在津巴布韦的所有，直到开始征用土地。 But does that deal with—the land of the white-minority there-–but does that deal with the underlying class conflicts that are obviously clearly percolating in reaching ahead right now in the country?但是否处理-土地的白领，有少数民族-但这是否处理背后的阶级矛盾，这显然是清楚渗滤在深远的未来的权利，现在在该国的？ HORACE CAMPBELL: Well, thank you for having me on the show. 贺拉斯坎贝尔：好的 ，谢谢你为我上显示。 First of all, I would say this platform on Democracy Now!首先，我会说，在这个平台上对民主的现在！ is a platform for the progressives, the left, and those who are involved in the peace movement.是一个平台，为进步，左侧，和那些谁是涉及在和平运动中。 Our discussions on what is going on in Zimbabwe or any other part of Africa should be guided by how our solidarity with the peoples of Zimbabwe, with the oppressed workers of Southern Africa, and in all parts of Africa can assist our own struggle in this country against all forms of oppression.我们在讨论是怎么回事，在津巴布韦或任何其他的一部分，非洲应遵循怎样我们的声援，与人民的津巴布韦，与被压迫的工人南部非洲，并在所有非洲部分地区，可帮助我们自己的斗争，在这个国家反对一切形式的压迫。 And so, comparing Zimbabwean’s oppression with other oppression in Africa does not excuse the oppression of the Zimbabweans people by any means.因此，比较，津巴布韦的压迫与其他压迫在非洲并不为借口，压迫的津巴布韦人以任何手段。 I think Gerald is very right about these oppressions across Africa, but organizations in this country that are in solidarity with the peace movement across the world ,that are in solidarity with the Zimbabwe people, should take the cue from the Congress of South African Trade Union that is calling for a blockade of Zimbabwe because of the oppression.我认为杰拉德是非常正确的对这些压迫的非洲各地，但组织在这个国家是在团结与和平运动在世界各地，这是在团结与津巴布韦人民，应采取线索，从国会南非工会这是要求进行封锁，津巴布韦，因为压迫。 And I think what distinguished Zimbabwe from those countries that Gerald speaks about is that none of those countries is representing themselves as being in the forefront of liberation.我认为杰出的津巴布韦从那些国家的杰拉尔德谈到的是，没有这些国家是代表自己，作为正处于前列解放。 Robert Mugabe and Zanupe started out like they were Lumumba in the Congo.穆加贝和zanupe开始像他们卢蒙巴在刚果的。 They ended up like Mubutu, killing from the people, arrested opposition leaders, killing people, calling homosexual pigs and dogs, and killing hundreds, tens of thousands of people.他们结束了一样， mubutu ，造成从人，被捕的反对派领袖，杀害人民，呼吁同性恋猪和狗，和杀害数百人，成千上万的人。 18% of the Zimbabwean people are unemployed. 18 ％的津巴布韦人失业。 While the stock exchange is the most successful in Africa.而证券交易所是最成功的是在非洲。 We on the left, in the peace movement, we acknowledge that George Bush nor Brown have any moral authority to criticize Zimbabwe because of the unjust war that they’re fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.我们在左边，在和平运动中，我们承认，布什也不是布朗有任何道德权威来批评津巴布韦，因为不公正的战争，他们正在战斗在伊拉克和阿富汗。 But having said that, we on the left and the progressives, we must take the moral leadership in having solidarity with those opposition leaders, those workers, those human rights workers in Zimbabwe and Southern Africa who are being oppressed by the Mugabe government.不过，话虽如此说，我们在左边和进步，我们必须采取的道德领导，有团结与这些反对派领袖，那些工人，那些人权工作者在津巴布韦和南部非洲谁正在受压迫，由穆加贝政府。 AMY GOODMAN: Your response, Gerald Horne? 艾米古德曼：您的回应后，杰拉尔德霍恩？ GERALD HORNE: Well I think there is very much to recommend with what Horace Campbell said. 杰拉尔德霍恩 ：我觉得是有很大的建议与什么贺拉斯坎贝尔说。 As a taxpayer to this government here in Washington, my first approach must be this regime of George W. Bush.作为一个纳税人，政府在这里在华盛顿，我第一次的做法，必须这个政权的乔治W布什。 And I think we have to question the hypocrisy of George Bush who has engaged in questionable elections in Florida and Ohio, questioning the legitimacy of the elections in Zimbabwe.我认为我们有问题的虚伪布什谁在从事可疑的选举在佛罗里达州和俄亥俄州，质疑选举的合法性在津巴布韦。 More than that, if the situation in Zimbabwe is so terrible, and I agree it is, why is it that the Bush administration continues to send undocumented Zimbabwe workers back to Zimbabwe?更有什者，如果津巴布韦的局势是如此的可怕，我同意这是为什么它说，布什政府继续向无证津巴布韦工人回到津巴布韦？ There’s been talk about a so- called genocide unfolding in Zimbabwe, yet, you see the Gordon Brown administration in London not giving asylum to Zimbabwe workers who are exiled now in London.还有的被谈论了所谓的种族灭绝开展在津巴布韦，然而，您会看到财政大臣布朗在伦敦当局没有给予庇护，津巴布韦工人谁是现在流亡在伦敦。 We talk about the Mugabe regime, but just the other day it was revealed that Anglo American, the major transnational corporation with close South African ties and headquarters in London, is about to make a $400 million investment in Zimbabwe.我们谈论穆加贝政权，而只是另一天据透露， Anglo American的，主要的跨国公司与南非密切的联系和总部在伦敦，大约使4亿美元的投资，津巴布韦。 Barclay’s bank is in Zimbabwe.巴克莱银行是在津巴布韦。 Rio Tinto-Zinc, the major mineral conglomerate is in Zimbabwe. Rio Tinto的锌，主要矿产砾岩是在津巴布韦。 It seems to me in the first place, we in the North Atlantic should be focusing on these kinds of contradictions that we can affect and as the African National Congress has said, leave Zimbabwe to the Zimbabwean people themselves.在我看来，摆在首位，我们在北大西洋应侧重于这些种矛盾，我们可以影响和南非非洲人国民大会曾表示，离开津巴布韦向津巴布韦人民自己。 AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to go to a break and we’ll come back to this discussion. 艾米古德曼：我们正在准备去休息，我们会回来，这讨论。 Our guests in Washington, Professor.我们的客人在华盛顿，教授。 Gerald Horne, Professor of African Studies at the University of Houston, he has lived in Zimbabwe, Professor Horace Campbell also joins us, professor of African- American studies at Syracuse University.杰拉尔德霍恩教授，非洲研究在休斯敦大学，他一直生活在津巴布韦，教授贺拉斯坎贝尔也加入我们，教授，非洲裔美国人的研究在锡拉丘兹大学。 We will be back with them both in a moment.我们将回到与他们都在一个时刻。 [music break] [音乐小休] AMY GOODMAN: This is democracy Now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. 艾米古德曼：这是民主的现在！ ， democracynow.org ，战争与和平的报告。 We’re talking about Zimbabwe.我们谈论的津巴布韦。 Professor Gerald Horne of the University of Houston is in Washington, Professor Horace Campbell of African American Studies and Political Science of Syracuse University is speaking to us from Syracuse.教授杰拉尔德霍恩的休斯敦大学是在华盛顿，教授贺拉斯坎贝尔非裔美国人的研究和政治学的锡拉丘兹大学是讲我们从锡拉丘兹。 If you could respond, Professor Campbell, to what Gerald Horne said before the break.如果您能回应，坎贝尔教授，什么杰拉尔德霍恩说，前打破。 HORACE CAMPBELL: Yes, I want to reiterate a point that any kind of political work we do on Zimbabwe should assist us in educating our people here so that when the Zimbabwe political leadership represents itself to say that it is being persecuted because it expropriated the land of the former white settlers, we have to interrogate what did the expropriation of the land mean for the millions of Zimbabweans workers, small farmers. 贺拉斯坎贝尔 ：是的 ，我要重申一点，任何形式的政治工作，我们对津巴布韦应该协助我们在教育我们的人民在这里，所以，当津巴布韦的政治领导，代表本身说这是受迫害的，因为它被征用土地对前白人定居者，我们要审问了些什么，征用的土地，意味着以百万计的津巴布韦工人，小农。 It is very clear that the Zimbabwean people needed to reclaim the land from the white settlers.这是非常清楚地表明，津巴布韦人民需要收回的土地从白人定居者。 But the Mugabe government, when he was receiving his knighthood from the british government, never negotiated about the land because throughout the period from 1980- 1992, Zimbabwe had the legal powers to be able to set in motion the possibilities for strengthening the working peoples, the farm workers, the women, the plantation and agricultural workers.但穆加贝政府，当他收到他的骑士荣誉，从英国政府，从来没有谈判的有关土地，因为整个期间，从1980年-1 992年，津巴布韦的法律权力，以便能够设置在议案的可能性，为加强民族工作，农场工人，妇女，种植园和农业劳动者。 And hen we speak about land, we must understand that whether the land is owned by white farmers are black farmers, the fundamental productivity on the land emanates from the labor of the working people—working people.母鸡和我们谈论土地，我们必须明白，无论土地是国有，由白人农场主是黑人农民，最根本的生产力，土地源自劳动工作的人-劳动人民。 So our task is how is it we defend the working people of Zimbabwe?因此，我们的任务是如何是我们保卫工作，津巴布韦人民？ The hundreds of thousands of workers who live on the conditions of wretchedness, who have been exploited by the black capitalist farmers, who are in the Zimbabwean government just as the whites have done.成千上万的工人，谁的生活条件wretchedness ，谁已利用黑资本主义的农民，谁是在津巴布韦政府一样，白人有工作要做。 So any kind of transition in Zimbabwe must involve strengthening the rights of the workers, the women, and the use in Zimbabwe.因此，任何形式的过渡，在津巴布韦，必须加强涉及权利的工人，妇女，和使用在津巴布韦。 I think that what Gerald said should throw away all of the talk about Mugabe been against imperialism because it was very clear that anglo- American, Barclay bank, and Rio-Tinto and diamond dealers have made billions of dollars while Mugabe was talking about the land.我认为这是什么杰拉尔德说，应该扔掉所有的谈论穆加贝一直反对帝国主义，因为它是很清楚，英美，巴克莱银行，以及里约廷托和钻石交易商已取得了数十亿美元的同时，穆加贝是在谈论土地。 And what we’re calling for is for any transitional period in Zimbabwe to be one where there is intervention by the African Union so that the billions that have been carried out by the ruling elements in Zimbabwe, that we do not have them carried out repression of the workers with impunity and then stealing the money as they have done the past 8-10 years.和我们所要求的是任何的过渡期，在津巴布韦是一个有干预由非洲联盟，使数十亿已进行的由执政党分子在津巴布韦，我们没有他们进行镇压的工人与有罪不罚的现象，然后窃取金钱，因为他们也做了过去的8-10年。 JUAN GONZALES: Gerald Horne, I’d like to ask you. 胡安冈萨雷斯：杰拉尔德霍恩，我想要问你。 Obviously Mugabe has been an icon and a hero, a giant in terms of the liberation movements in Africa for decades.显然穆加贝一直一个图标和一个英雄，一个巨人在条款解放运动在非洲数十年之久。 But your sense now, do you believe that he still represents any forces for progress in Africa or has he gradually transformed himself into a dictator?但您的意识，现在，你认为他仍代表任何势力，为非洲的进步，或有他自己逐步改造成为一个独裁者？ GERALD HORNE: Well, I think that president Mugabe is a force to be reckoned with in Zimbabwe.杰拉尔德霍恩 ：好的 ，我认为穆加贝总统是一支不可忽视的在津巴布韦。 And I agree with those leaders in the region who feel that he and his party must be contented with if there is to be a settlement of this controversy in Zimbabwe.我同意这些领导人在该地区的谁觉得他和他的党必须知足，如果有是要解决这一争议在津巴布韦。 I should also say that with regard to professor Campbell, I’m here not to carry a brief on OPS , but they have argued they did not move on land reform before 1994, ie the date of the South African elections, so as not to unsettle the situation in neighboring South Africa, which of course has outstanding land claims of its own.我也应该说，对于坎贝尔教授，我在这里不进行简短的关于老年退休金计划 ，但他们辩称，他们没有提出对土地改革在1994年前，即日起，南非的选举，以便不动摇的情况在周边南非，其中当然有优秀的土地要求其自身的。 We all know there are more white farmers killed in South Africa than have been killed in Zimbabwe.我们都知道，有更多的白人农场主杀害，在南非比已被杀害在津巴布韦。 And likewise, there are outstanding land claims in neighboring Namibia as well.同样地，有杰出的土地要求在邻国纳米比亚以及。 I think it’s understandable why there has been a focus on on Zanu PF, but standing in the wings of the opposition of the MDC and sadly, unfortunately, there has not been considerable focus on them such as their leaders, Roy Bennet, a top leader, a former major land owner in Zimbabwe who of course throttled an African leader on the floor of the Zimbabweans parliament—I would of thought that kind of behavior would have ended in independence in 1980.我觉得这是可以理解的，所以一直把重点放在对zanu公积金，但常委会在机翼的反对，该委员会和可悲的是，不幸的是，一直没有相当的重点放在他们如他们的领导人，罗伊贝纳特，最高领导人，前主要的土地所有者在津巴布韦谁当然扼杀一个非洲领导人在地板上的津巴布韦议会-我想的思路，这样的行为会已经结束，在独立，于1 980年。 You have other leading Rhodesians in the leadership of MDC .您有其他领导rhodesians在领导民运 。 One thing that worries many of us is that if MDC does come to power, there will be a split and quite frankly, they will pave the way for the rise of certain retrograde elements like Roy Bennet come back into power.一件事的忧虑，我们很多人的是，如果民运不来的权力，会有一个分裂和坦白说，他们会铺平道路，崛起的大倒退，某些元素像罗伊贝纳特回来执政。 In some ways, MDC , a trade union-led movement, is akin to solidarity in Poland which of course paved the way for the present right wing in Poland to come to power in Warsaw.在某些方面， 人力发展委员会 ，工会主导的运动，类似于团结在波兰这当然铺平了道路，对于目前的右翼势力在波兰来的权力在华沙举行。 So we have to be careful when we try to butt in to the internal affairs of a sovereign state.因此，我们必须要小心，当我们尝试对接，以在内部一个主权国家的内政。 I think our energies would be best served by putting pressure on this government here in Washington and its comical sidekick in London.我认为我们的精力将最好的服务施加压力，这个政府在这里在华盛顿和其滑稽sidekick在伦敦。 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Horace Campbell? 艾米古德曼：坎贝尔教授贺拉斯？ HORACE CAMPBELL: The intellectual subservience of the MDC and the leadership ofthe MDC is clear to most workers in Southern Africa. 贺拉斯坎贝尔 ：智力subservience的民运和领导之民运很清楚，大多数工人在南部非洲。 But this point in the history of Zimbabwe, the MDC doesn’t have political power.不过，这一点在历史的津巴布韦，该委员会并没有政治权力。 The social forces that are organized in Zimbabwe against the government have thrown their weight behind the MDC at the present moment.社会力量举办，在津巴布韦，对政府有投掷他们的体重背后的民运目前。 The Women of Zimbabwe rise, these are independent organizations, Padari, the workers, agricultural and plantation workers.妇女津巴布韦上升，这些都是独立的组织， padari ，工人，农业和种植园工人。 I do not think—we do not have the right to say to the Zimbabwean workers that your under oppression and therefore, we should decide for you because of the history of Mugabe’s relationship to the liberation movement, 28 years ago, then we should be saying to you what your choices should be.我不认为-我们没有权利说，津巴布韦的工人，您的压迫下，因此，我们应该决定你是因为历史的穆加比的关系的解放运动， 2 8年前，我们便应该说你是什么您的选择应。 In Southern Africa, the Congress of South African Trade Union movement has called for a blockade of the Zimbabwean government and is the Zimbabwe leadership and the Congress of South African Trade Union which is the largest trade union movement in Southern Africa is a movement which is calling for the isolation of Mugabe government.在南部非洲，国会南非的工会运动，呼吁封锁津巴布韦政府和津巴布韦的领导和代表大会，南非工会，这是世界上最大的工会运动在南部非洲是一种运动，这是呼唤为孤立穆加贝政府。 What we agree with Gerald is on as the falling—the land question in Southern Africa is an urgent question in the media, in south Africa, and in Zimbabwe.什么我们同意杰拉尔德是对作为降土地问题在南部非洲是一个迫切的问题，在新闻媒体，在南非，在津巴布韦。 But having said that, we must learn lessons from Zimbabwe.不过，话虽如此说，我们必须从中吸取教训，津巴布韦。 To say that when land his been reclaimed it should not be reclaimed for rich, black farmers to replace white farmers.说时，他的土地被开垦，不应该填海丰富，黑人农民，以取代白人农场主。 Land when it is being reclaimed in South Africa or in Nambia should be reclaimed in a condition where there is health and safety conditions for the working people’s.土地时，它是填海在南非或在纳米比亚应填在一个条件那里的卫生和安全条件，为劳动人民的。 So yes, we should take lessons from Zimbabwe and we should introduce new politics in Southern Africa that is coming out of the politics of reconciliation.所以是的，我们应采取的教训，从津巴布韦和我们应该引进新的政治，在南部非洲是走出来的政治和解。 That no concept of victory should be victory which gives power to one group over another there should be ways in which the transition towards a new political dispersion—in south Africa it is one that strengthens the producing classes, the small workers, farmers, students.没有概念的胜利应该是胜利，让权力一组另一应该有办法，使过渡迈向一个新的政治色散，在南非这是一个加强生产班，小工人，农民，学生。 And these are the forces that have been repressed, brutalized, the trade union leaders that are in jail right now in Zimbabwe should be released.这些都是力量，已压制，摧残，工会领袖是在监狱中的权利，现在在津巴布韦应该被释放。 Opposition leaders should be released.反对派领导人应该被释放。 Women should be released.妇女应该被释放。 Human rights workers should be released.人权工作者应予以释放。 So that yes, we can criticize the leadership of the MDC and I have done so in my writing, in my book, “Reclaiming Zimbabwe” but the government of Zimbabwe must now arise in a situation where we provide leadership in a condition where 80% of the people are unemployed, where women have been persecuted as prostitutes when a walk on the streets.这样的话，我们可以批评的领导民运 ，我已经这样做在我的写作，在我的书“ ，领回津巴布韦” ，但津巴布韦政府现在必须出现的情况下，我们所提供的领导在一个条件的80 ％把人民的失业，那里的妇女有被迫害充当妓女时，漫步于街头。 Were homosexuals have been called pigs and dogs and where men go around trying to have sexual relations with young virgins saying this would prevent HIV/ AIDS .被同性恋者被称为猪和狗和男子四出试图发生性关系，与年轻处女说，这将防止艾滋病毒/ 艾滋病 。 We need a new political leadership to go against this kind of backwardness that came out of the kind of patriotic leadership that we had for the past 28 years.我们需要一个新的政治领导，违背了这种落后出来的那种爱国的领导，我们曾在过去的28年。 AMY GOODMAN: We wanted to bring South African archbishop Desmond Tutu into this. 艾米古德曼：我们希望把南非的德斯蒙德图图大主教到这一点。 He also came out forcefully against the violence and intimidation in Zimbabwe speaking in Cape Town Tuesday, who warned Mugabe should bend to international pressure or could risk facing universal sanctions and could risk facing an international criminal court.他还出来，有力地反对暴力和恐吓事件，在津巴布韦谈到在南非开普敦周二，谁警告穆加贝应该屈服于国际压力，或可能面临的风险普遍制裁，并可能面临的风险，一个国际刑事法院。
AMY GOODMAN: Archbishop Desmond Tutu Gerald Horne, your response both to Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Horace Campbell. 艾米古德曼：德斯蒙德图图大主教杰拉尔德霍恩，您的反应既要德斯蒙德图图大主教和贺拉斯坎贝尔。 GERALD HORNE: Well obviously we have enormous respect for Archbishop Desmond Tutu. 杰拉尔德霍恩 ：好，我们显然有着巨大的尊重德斯蒙德图图大主教。 But I must return to the question that should occupy us in the North Atlantic.但我必须返回到的问题应占有我们在北大西洋。 Which is why is it the Zimbabwe gets so much focus and attention on this side of the Atlantic when Paul Biya, the leader of Cameron a few weeks ago basically named himself President for life and it barely registers a blip?这就是为什么它的津巴布韦获得了这么多的重点和注意这个大西洋彼岸时，保罗比亚，领导人金马伦在数星期前，基本上命名自己的终身总统和它勉强选民登记册位置亮点呢？ Similar situation unfolding in Uganda with Yoweri Museveni.类似的情况，开展在乌干达与穆塞韦尼。 I think part of the reason, not only the race and racism question, there’s also the question that many of the former Rhodesian have kith and kin on the side of the Atlantic.我认为部分原因，不只是种族和种族主义问题，也有问题，许多前rhodesian有kith和亲人对大西洋彼岸的。 The spouse of Henry Kissinger, the former US Secretary of State.配偶基辛格，美国前国务卿。 The spouse of Chester Crocker, the former assistant Secretary of State for Africa under the Reagan administration.配偶切斯特克罗克，前国务院助理国务卿，为非洲下，美国里根政府。 Even some distant relatives of George Washington for whom the city of which I’m sitting is named.甚至一些远亲乔治华盛顿为谁城市，其中我坐在命名。 Ian Smith, the former Rhodesian leader of course has relatives in San Diego.伊安史密斯，前rhodesian领导人当然有亲属在圣地牙哥的。 There were hundreds if not thousands of white mercenaries who flocked to Rhodesia in the 1970’s and 1980’s to fight against liberation of that particular country.有数百如果没有成千上万的白人雇佣军谁蜂拥而至罗德西亚在1970和1980年的打击解放特定国家。 And it befuddles and baffles me why this kind of basic historical background is not integrated into the conversation, integrated into the discourse on Zimbabwe.它befuddles和挡板我为什么这种基本的历史背景，是不是融入谈话中，融入话语对津巴布韦。 I think it gives a very bad impression on the African continent which leads many Africans to consider their only focus on the North Atlantic is on Zimbabwe because there is a white minority and that perhaps explains to why there has been such a lethargy in responding to some of the human rights violations that are unfolding in Zimbabwe.我认为这给了一个很坏的印象，在非洲大陆上，导致许多非洲人考虑他们的只集中在北大西洋的是津巴布韦，因为是有少数白人和，这也许说明了为什么有这么嗜睡在回应部分对侵犯人权的行为展开在津巴布韦。 And until that kind of situation is rectified, I dare say there will continue to be an uncivil situation in Zimbabwe.及直至该种情况是，纠正，我敢说有将继续成为不文明津巴布韦的局势。 JUAN GONZALES: Gerald, all that being true and we clearly recognize that disparity in approach and coverage, back in 2005, there were massive forced relocations of hundreds of thousands of people by the Mugabe government that really stunned people, even here in a progressive community of the United States who have supported Mugabe and the past. 胡安冈萨雷斯：杰拉尔德，所有这些正在真实而我们清醒地认识到，差距在方法和范围，早在2005年，有庞大的强迫迁移，成千上万的人，由穆加贝总统的政府真的震惊的人，即使是在这里一个进步社会对美国谁支持穆加贝和过去。 Your response to those relocations and again to the issue of whether the government has increasingly become iron handed and dictatorial in dealing with its own people?您的回应，这些迁移，并再次向的问题，政府是否已越来越成为铁移交和独裁，在处理与自己的人民？ GERALD HORNE: Well, those dislocations were tragic and unfortunate.杰拉尔德霍恩 ：好的 ，那些被混乱的悲惨和不幸。 I know about them because I hail from St. Louis, Missouri.我知道他们，因为我冰雹从密苏里州圣路易斯市。 And of course it used to be said, with regard to that city and many other cities, that urban renewal meant negro removal.和当然它用来说，关于这个城市和其他许多城市，市区重建是指黑人遣送离境。 That kind of situation is not unique to Zimbabwe.这种情况并非独有，津巴布韦。 In Senegal as we speak, there been tens of thousands of Africans who have been displaced because of a civil conflict there reaches back 25 years.在塞内加尔，我们发言的时候，有数以万计的非洲人谁已流离失所，因为一个民间那里的冲突达到回25年。 It has barely registered a blip on the international press screen.它几乎没有注册的位置亮点，在国际上的新闻画面。 So yes, those situations that are referred to in Zimbabwe are quite tragic and they need to be criticized as well as other analogous situations.所以是的，这些情况是指在津巴布韦是相当悲惨，他们需要被人批评为，以及其他类似的情况。 And when those analogous situations are not criticized, it basically provides fodder for those who would like to downplay the situation in Zimbabwe.而当这些类似的情况是不批评，它基本上提供了饲料对于谁想淡化津巴布韦的局势。 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Horace Campbell, we just have about 30 seconds, your response and your summary? 艾米古德曼：教授贺拉斯坎贝尔，我们只是约30秒，您的反应和您的摘要吗？ HORACE CAMPBELL: My response is that the government of Senegal, the government of Cameroon does not represent itself as a liberation government. 贺拉斯坎贝尔：我的回应是，政府对塞内加尔，喀麦隆政府并不代表本身作为一个解放政府。 The Zimbabwean government is very aware of the racism that exists in North America.津巴布韦政府是非常清楚的种族主义存在，在北美。 And it is exploiting that racism and the antiracist sentiment among Africans in the west in order to legitimize its repression on the people.这是剥削，种族主义和antiracist情绪的非洲人，在西方，为了合法化，其对镇压人民的。 The government of Zimbabwe at this moment is illegitimate we must avoid war at all costs.津巴布韦政府在这一刻是不合法的，我们必须避免战争，不惜一切代价。 Mugabe says only god can remove him and he will go to war.穆加贝说，只有上帝可以删除，他会走向战争。 At present, he is at war with the Zimbabwe people and we must end the silence in the progressive and pan-African community against this type of manipulation and repression in the name of liberation.目前，他是在战争与津巴布韦人民和我们必须结束沉默，在逐步和泛非社会对这种类型的操控和镇压，在名称的解放。 AMY GOODMAN: We will leave it there. 艾米古德曼：我们会离开它。 Professor Horace Campbell of Syracuse University and Professor Gerald Horne of Houston University, thank you for joining us.坎贝尔教授贺拉斯的锡拉丘兹大学和教授杰拉尔德霍恩的休斯顿大学，谢谢你加入我们的行列。 That does it for today’s show, if you want a copy of the show go to democracynow.org, tomorrow night I’ll be at Des Moines, Iowa at Simpsons College, tomorrow morning at ten in Fairfield Iowa at the library, and Tuesday night the Aspen Ideas Festival.这是否为今天的表演，如果您想要的副本显示到democracynow.org ，明天晚上我将在Des Moines的，在艾奥瓦州辛普森学院，明天上午十在爱荷华州费尔菲尔德在图书馆，和周二晚阿斯本节的想法。 See More: 看到更多的： World News 世界新闻 | Translations 翻译               Free Newsletter 免费通讯 Related News 相关新闻
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