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Monday, June 2nd, 2008 週一， 2008年6月2日

By John Veit - HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE | A hundred years from now, Avram Noam Chomsky is going to figure in the history books as the prime voice of conscience, dissent and reason in the wars and social catastrophes of the late 20 ^th century.由約翰veit -高時代雜誌|百年從現在起， a vram諾姆喬姆斯基去的數字，在歷史書籍作為首要良心的聲音，不同意見和理由，在戰爭和社會災難的後期， 2 ^0世紀。 At the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the 1950s, he began an intellectual revolution in the understanding of linguistics which very efficiently challenged and subverted the old knee-jerk behavioristic worldview that nourished the Cold War.在麻省理工學院技術在20世紀50年代，他開始一個知識分子的革命的理解，語言學，這非常有效率的挑戰和顛覆舊的條件反射behavioristic世界觀營養冷戰。 His seamless critical essays on American foreign and domestic policies since then have unerringly diagnosed their fallacies, relentlessly dissecting the propaganda of the power establishment.他的散文無縫的關鍵美國外交和國內政策，自那時以來已unerringly診斷其歪理邪說，無情地解剖，宣傳的權力，設立。 We thought it was time he addressed the Drug War.我們認為這是時間，他處理禁毒戰爭。

HIGH TIMES: You’ve defined the War on Drugs as an instrument of population control. 高時代：您已經確定了戰爭對毒品的一種手段控制人口增長。 How does it accomplish that? 它如何完成呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Population control is actually a term I borrowed from the counterinsurgency literature of the Kennedy years.諾姆喬姆斯基：控制人口增長其實是一個長遠的我借來從反文學的堅尼地年。 The main targets at the time were Southeast Asia and Latin America, where there was an awful lot popular ferment.主要目標是在當時的東南亞和拉丁美洲，那裡是一個可怕的很多受歡迎的發酵。 They recognized that the population was supporting popular forces that were calling for all kinds of social change that the United States simply could not tolerate.他們認識到，人口是支持人民力量被要求為所有種的社會變革，美國根本無法容忍。 And you could control people in a number of ways.和你可以控制的人在若干方面。 One way was just by terror and violence, napalm bombing and so on, but they also worked on developing other kinds of population-control measures to keep people subjugated, ranging from propaganda to concentration camps.方法之一是剛剛由恐怖和暴力，凝固汽油彈轟炸等，但他們還致力於發展其他種的人口控制措施，以保持人征服，從宣傳到集中營。 Propaganda is much more effective when it is combined with terror.宣傳是更為有效時，它是結合恐怖。

You have the same problem domestically, where the public is constantly getting out of control.你有同樣的問題在國內，如果市民是不斷失控。 You have to carry out measures to insure that they remain passive and apathetic and obedient, and don’t interfere with privilege and power.你必須進行的措施，以保證他們仍然被動和漠不關心和聽話，不干預的特權和權力。 It’sa major theme of modern democracy.這是主要的主題，現代民主。 As the mechanisms of democracy expand, like enfranchisement and growth, the need to control people by other means increases.作為民主機制，擴大一樣，政治權利和增長，需要控制的人以其他方式增加。

So the growth of corporate propaganda in the United States more or less parallels the growth of democracy, for quite straightforward reasons.因此，增長的企業宣傳，在美國更多或更少的平行增長，民主，非常簡單的原因。 It’s not any kind of secret.這不是任何種類的秘密。 It is discussed very frankly and openly in business literature and academic social-science journals.這是非常坦率的討論，並公開在業務上文學和學術的社會科學期刊。 You have to “fight the everlasting battle for the minds of men,” in their standard phraseology, to indoctrinate and regiment them in the way that armies regiment their bodies.你要“鬥爭，永恆的爭奪戰的頭腦， ”在他們的標準用語，灌輸和他們在團的方式，兩軍團他們的屍體。 Those are population-control measures.這些都是與人口控制措施。 This engineering or manufacture of consent is the essence of democracy, because you have to insure that ignorant and meddlesome outsiders - meaning, we, the people - don’t interfere with the work of the serious people who run public affairs in the interests of the privileged.這個工程或製造的同意，是民主的真諦，因為你要保證無知和meddlesome外人-意義，我們人民的-不干預的工作，嚴重的人，誰執行公共事務，在利益的享有特權。

HIGH TIMES: How does the War on Drugs fit into this? 高時代：如何打擊毒品融入這個？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, one of the traditional and obvious ways of controlling people in every society, whether it’sa military dictatorship or a democracy, is to frighten them.諾姆喬姆斯基：好的，其中的傳統和明顯的方式控制人民，在每一個社會，無論是軍事獨裁或民主，是要嚇唬他們。 If people are frightened, they’ll be willing to cede authority to their superiors who will protect them: “OK, I’ll let you run my life in order to protect me,” that sort of reasoning.如果人們害怕，他們將願意割讓管理局向上級誰將會保護他們： “確定，我會告訴您來說，我的生命，為了保護我， ”這種推理。

So the fear of drugs and fear of crime is very much stimulated by state and business propaganda.因此，恐懼，毒品和對犯罪的恐懼是非常刺激的國家和商業宣傳。 The National Justice Commission repeatedly points out that crime in the United States, while sort of high, is not off the spectrum for industrial societies.國家司法委員會一再指出，犯罪在美國，而這類高，是不是小康的頻譜為工業社會。 On the other hand, fear of crime is far beyond other societies, and mostly stimulated by various forms of propaganda.在另一方面，對犯罪的恐懼是遠遠超出其他社團，大多是刺激了各種形式的宣傳。 The Drug War is an effort to stimulate fear of dangerous people from whom we have to protect ourselves.禁毒戰爭是一個努力，以刺激害怕危險的人從其中我們要保護我們自己。 It is also a direct form of control of what are called the “dangerous classes,” those superfluous people who don’t really have a function contributing to profit-making and wealth.這也是一個直接形式的管制，什麼樣的被稱為“危險的班， ”這些多餘的人誰不真的有功能的貢獻牟利和財富。 They have to be somehow taken care of.他們必須在某種程度上照顧。

HIGH TIMES: In some other countries you just hang the rabble. 高時代：在其他一些國家你剛才掛烏合之眾。

NOAM CHOMSKY: Yes, but in the US you don’t kill them, you put them in jail.諾姆喬姆斯基：是的，但在美國，你不殺死他們，你把他們送進監獄。 The economic policies of the 1980s sharply increased inequality, concentrating such economic growth as there was, which was not enormous, in very few hands.經濟政策20世紀80年代急劇增加的不平等，集中力量，例如經濟增長，因此，這是不是巨大的，在很少數人手中。 The top few percent of the population got extremely wealthy as profits went through the roof, and meanwhile median-income wages were stagnating or declining.頂端數％的人口得到非常富裕，作為利潤經歷了屋頂，同時中位數收入的工資停滯或下降。 People have to work harder, and public support systems for poor and hungry people have been declining sharply ever since the ’70s.人民要努力工作，和公眾支持系統的貧窮和飢餓的人已大幅下降，自七十年代。 You’re getting a large mass of people who are insecure, suffering from difficulty or misery, or something in between.您收到一大塊的人誰是不安全的，痛苦的從困難或痛苦，或一些在兩者之間。 A lot of them basically are going to be arrested, because you have to control them.很多人，基本上是要被拘捕，因為你要控制它們。

The Drug War is used for that purpose.毒品戰爭是用於這一目的。 It very explicitly targets young black males.它非常明確的目標，年輕的黑人男性。 When the War on Drugs was re-declared in the late ’80s, Senator Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) pointed out that if you just look at social statistics, you can see that we are calling for a war against poor minorities, black males basically.當戰爭對藥品重新宣布在八十年代末期，參議員帕特里克莫伊尼漢（四-紐約州）指出，如果你只是看看社會統計資料，您可以看到我們呼籲戰爭對窮人的少數民族，黑色，男性基本上。

HIGH TIMES: It’s obviously true, but how do you prove it? 高時代：它的明顯事實，但你怎麼證明這一點呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Just by looking at the trend lines for marijuana.諾姆喬姆斯基：只要看看在趨勢線為大麻。 Marijuana use was peaking in the late ’70s, but there was not much criminalization.使用大麻是高峰期，在七十年代末期，但有沒有太大的刑事定罪。 You didn’t go to jail for life for having marijuana then because the people using it were nice folks like us, the children of the rich.你沒有去坐牢的生活有大麻，然後，因為人使用它是很好的鄉親跟我們一樣，兒童的豐富。 You don’t throw them into jail any more than you throw corporate executives in jail - even though corporate crime is far more costly and dangerous than street crime.你不扔他們投入監獄的任何更多的比你丟公司行政人員在監獄中-即使公司犯罪是遠遠較昂貴的和危險的，比街頭犯罪。 But then in the ’80s the use of various “unhealthy” substances started to decline among more educated sectors: marijuana and tobacco smoking, alcohol, red meat, coffee, this whole category of stuff.但後來在八十年代使用的各種“不健康”的物質開始下降，其中更多的教育部門：大麻和吸煙，酗酒，紅色肉類，咖啡，這整類的東西。 On the other hand, usage remained steady among poorer sectors of the population.在另一方面，使用保持穩定之間的貧的人口階層。 In the United States, poor and black correlate - they’re not identical, but there’sa correlation - and in poor, black and Hispanic sectors of the population the use of such substances remained pretty steady.在美國，窮人和黑人的相關性-它們並不相同，但有相關性-在窮人，黑人和拉美裔的人口階層，使用這類物質的仍然相當穩定。

So take a look at those trend lines.因此，採取看看那些趨勢線。 When you call for a War on Drugs, you know exactly who you are going to pick up: poor black people.當你調用一個戰爭對毒品的，你確實知道你是誰，要拿起：窮人的黑色人。 You’re not going to pick up rich white people; you don’t go after them anyway.您不打算拿起豐富的白色人;你不去後，他們無論如何。 In the upper-middle-class suburb where I live, if somebody goes home and sniffs some cocaine the police don’t break into their house.在上層的中產階級郊區的地方，我住，如果有人回家和sniffs一些可卡因，警方並沒有破門進入他們的房子。

So there are many factors making the Drug War a war against the poor, largely poor people of color.因此，有許多因素，使毒品的戰爭，戰爭對窮人的，主要是貧困人口的顏色。 And those are the people they have to get rid of.這些都是人民的他們要擺脫。 During the period these economic policies were being instituted, the incarceration rate was shooting up, but crime wasn’t, it was steady or declining.期間，這些經濟政策被提起，監禁率是射擊，但不是犯罪，這是穩定或下降。 But imprisonment went way up.但到監禁的方式。 By the late ’80s, in terms of imprisoning our population, we were way ahead of the rest of the world, way ahead of any other industrial society.由八十年代末期，在條款監禁我們的人口，我們前進的道路上的世界其餘地區，前進的道路上的任何其他工業社會。

HIGH TIMES: Who benefits from incarcerating young black males? 高時代：誰是受益者，從監禁年輕黑人男性？

NOAM CHOMSKY: A lot of people.諾姆喬姆斯基：有很多人。 Poor people are basically superfluous for wealth production, and therefore the wealthy want to get rid of them.貧困人口基本上是多餘的財富生產，因此，富人要擺脫他們。 The rich also frighten everyone else, because if you’re afraid of these people, then you submit to state authority.有錢人還嚇唬大家，否則，因為如果您怕這些人，那麼你提交給國家權力。 But beyond that, it’sa state industry.但除此之外，這是國家的產業。 Since the 1930s, every businessman has understood that a private capitalist economy must have massive state subsidies; the only question is what form that state subsidy will take.自20世紀30年代，每一個商人了解，私人資本主義經濟必須有大量的國家補貼;唯一的問題是何種形式的國家補貼將採取。 In the United States the main form has been through the military system.在美國的主要形式，已通過軍事系統。 The most dynamic aspects of the economy - computers, the Internet, the aeronautical industry, pharmaceuticals - have fed off the military system.最有活力的方面的經濟-電腦，互聯網，航空業，製藥業-美聯儲小康的軍事制度。 But the crime-control industry, as it’s called by criminologists, is becoming the fastest-growing industry in America.但犯罪控制工業，因為它的所謂的犯罪，正在成為增長最快的行業在美國。

And it’sa state industry, publicly funded.這是國家和產業，以公帑資助的。 It’s the construction industry, the real-estate industry, and also high-tech firms.它的建造業，房地產業，也是高科技企業。 It’s gotten to a scale sufficient that high-technology and military contractors are looking to it as a market for techniques of high-tech control and surveillance, so you can monitor what people do in their private activities with complicated electronic devices and supercomputers: monitoring their telephone calls and urinalyses and so forth.它得到了一個規模足夠高的技術和軍事承包商正在尋找它作為一個市場，為技術的高科技控制和監視，使您可以監控什麼人都在他們的私人活動，與複雜的電子設備和超級計算機：監測他們的電話和urinalyses等等。 In fact, the time will probably come when this superfluous population can be locked up in private apartments, not jails, and just monitored to track when they do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, go the wrong direction.事實上，在時間可能會來時，這是多餘的人口可以被關在私人公寓，而不是監獄，和公正的監測，跟踪，當他們這樣做是錯誤的事，說錯誤的東西，去了錯誤的方向。

HIGH TIMES: House arrest for the masses. 高時代：軟禁群眾。

It’s enough of an industry so that the major defense-industry firms are interested; you can read about it in The Wall Street Journal .它的足夠的一個產業，使主要的國防工業公司有興趣，您可以閱讀有關它在華爾街日報 。 The big law firms and investment houses are interested: Merrill Lynch is floating big loans for prison construction.大律師事務所和投資的房子有興趣：美林證券是浮動大的貸款監獄建設。 If you take the whole system, it’s probably approaching the scale of the Pentagon.如果您需要整個系統，這可能是接近的規模，五角大樓。

Also, this is a terrific workforce.此外，這是一個了不起的勞動力。 We hear a fuss about prison labor in China, but prison labor is standard here.我們聽到做文章，監獄勞動，在中國，但監獄勞動標準是在這裡。 It’s very cheap, it doesn’t organize, the workers don’t ask for rights, you don’t have to worry about health benefits because the public is paying for everything.它的非常便宜，這並不組織，工人沒有要求的權利，你不用擔心健康的好處，因為市民是付出的一切。 It’s what’s called a “flexible” workforce, the kind of thing economists like; you have the workers when you want them, and you throw them out when you don’t want them.它的什麼所謂的“靈活”的勞動力，種的東西經濟學家一樣;你有沒有工人當你想他們，你丟出來，當你不想他們。

And what’s more, it’s an old American tradition.什麼的更多，它的一歲的美國傳統。 There was a big industrial revolution in parts of the South in the early part of this century, in northern Georgia and Kentucky and Alabama, and it was based mostly around prison labor.有一個大的工業革命在部分南方，在本世紀初，在北部的格魯吉亞和肯塔基州和阿拉巴馬州，它是基於大多靠近監獄勞動。 The slaves had been technically freed, but after a few years they were basically slaves again.奴隸已經在技術上釋放，但幾年後，他們基本上都是奴隸。 One way of controlling them was to throw them in jail, where they became a controlled labor force.的方法之一，控制他們是丟他們送進監獄，在那裡他們成為控制的勞動力。 That’s the core of the modern industrial revolution in the South, which continued in Georgia to the 1920s and to the Second World War in places like Mississippi.這是核心的現代工業革命在南方，繼續在格魯吉亞，以20世紀20年代，並在第二次世界戰爭的地方，像密西西比州。 (It should be noted that when “involuntary servitude” was abolished, the only exception was criminals convicted of crimes. WFI Editor ) （應該指出的是，當“非自願勞役”被取消，唯一的例外是罪犯定罪的罪行。 wfi編者 ）

Now it’s being revived.現在的正在復甦。 In Oregon and California there’sa fairly substantial textile industry in the prisons, with exports to Asia.在俄勒岡州和加利福尼亞州有相當可觀的紡織工業在監獄裡，與對亞洲的出口。 At the very time people were complaining about prison labor in China, California and Oregon are exporting prison-made textiles to China.在非常費時人抱怨監獄勞動在中國，加利福尼亞州和俄勒岡州出口監獄作出的對中國的紡織品。 They even have a line called, “Prison Blues.”他們甚至有一個所謂的路線， “監獄藍調” 。

And it goes all the way up to advanced technology like data processing.和這是不言而喻的所有方式最多的先進技術一樣，數據處理。 In the state of Washington, Boeing workers are protesting the export of jobs to China, but they’re probably unaware that their jobs are being exported to nearby prisons, where machinists are doing work for Boeing under circumstances that the management is delighted over, for obvious reasons.在華盛頓州，波音公司工人抗議的出口，就業機會，中國，但他們很可能不知道他們的工作已出口到附近的監獄，那裡的機械師正在做的工作，為波音公司的情況下的管理很高興，為顯而易見的原因。

HIGH TIMES: And most of these prisoners are now nonviolent drug offenders. 高時代：和大部分的這些囚犯，現在非暴力毒品罪犯。

NOAM CHOMSKY: The enormous rate of growth of the prison population has been mostly drug-related.諾姆喬姆斯基：巨大的增長速度監獄人口已大多是與毒品有關。 The last figures I saw showed that over half the federal prison population, and maybe a quarter in state prisons, are drug offenders.最近我看到的數字表明，超過一半的聯邦監獄人口，也許一季度在國家監獄，是毒品罪犯。 In New York State, for example, a twenty-dollar street sale or possession of an ounce of cocaine will get you the same sentence as arson with intent to murder.在紐約州，例如，一個20美元的街出售或藏有一盎司的可卡因，讓您同一句話列為縱火意圖謀殺罪。 The three-strikes legislation is going to blow it right through the sky.三罷工立法是要打擊它的權利，透過天空。 The third arrest can be for some minor drug offense, and you’ll go to jail forever.第三逮捕，可以對一些輕微毒品罪，且您將前往監獄服刑也永遠。 (Another side effect of the three-strikes laws has been a dramatic increase in the number of high-speed police car chases, and car-chase-related car accidents. Knowing that they are up against a life sentence, even petty criminals try to escape now, instead of surrendering. WFI Editor ) （另一邊的影響，三罷工的法律一直是人數急劇增加的高速一輛警車追逐，及汽車追逐有關的車禍。明知他們是對被判處終身監禁，即使是輕罪犯人嘗試逃生現在，而不是投降。 wfi編者 ）

HIGH TIMES: The Drug Czar’s office estimates that Americans spend $57 billion annually on illegal drugs. 高時代：藥物沙皇的辦公室估計，美國人花費570億美元，每年的非法毒品。 What effect does this have on the global economy? 有什麼影響，這是否已對全球經濟的呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the United Nations tries to monitor the international drug trade, and their estimates are on the order of $400 to $500 billion - half a trillion dollars a year - in trade alone, which makes it higher than oil, something like 10 percent of world trade.諾姆喬姆斯基：好，聯合國試圖以監測國際毒品貿易，以及他們的估計是對秩序的400元到5000億美元-半年萬億美元1年-在貿易單，這使得高於石油，像1 0 ％的世界貿易。 Where this money goes to is mostly unknown, but general estimates are that maybe 60 % of it passes through US banks.如果這筆錢去大多是未知的，但一般的估計是，也許有60 ％的，它通過美國銀行。 After that, a lot goes to offshore tax havens.之後，很多去境外避稅。 It’s so obscure that nobody monitors it, and nobody wants to.它的模糊，沒有人監督它，沒有人願意。 But the Commerce Department every year publishes figures on foreign direct investment, where US investment is going, and through the ’90s the big excitement has been the “new emerging markets” like Latin America.但商業部每年發布的數字，外國直接投資，其中美國的投資是持續，並通過了九十年代大的興奮已被“新興市場”一樣，拉丁美洲。 And it turns out that a quarter of US foreign direct investment is going to Bermuda, another 15% to the Bahamas and Cayman Islands, another 10% to Panama, and so on.和原來一個季度美國的外國直接投資是前往百慕大，另有15 ％ ，巴哈馬和開曼群島，另有10 ％到巴拿馬，等等。 Now, they’re not building steel factories.現在，它們就不會建設鋼鐵工廠。 The most benign interpretation is that it’s just tax havens.最良性的解釋是，這只是避稅。 And the less benign interpretation is that it’s one way of passing illegal money into places where it will not be monitored.和較低的良性的解釋是，它的方法之一，通過非法資金投入的地方，它不會被監控。 We really don’t know, because it is not investigated.我們真的不知道，因為它是沒有調查。 This is not the task of the Justice Department, which is to go after a black kid in the ghetto who has a joint in his pocket.這是沒有的任務，司法部，這是去後，一個黑色的孩子，在貧民區誰已聯合在他的口袋。

HIGH TIMES: What do you think of the US policy of offering trade and aid favors to countries who promulgate so-called anti-drug initiatives? 高時代：您怎麼看美國的政策，提供貿易和援助的國家主張誰頒布，使所謂的反毒品的倡議？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Actually, US programs radically increase the use of drugs.諾姆喬姆斯基：其實，美國計劃從根本上增加使用的藥物。 Look at the big growth in cocaine production that has exploded in the Andes over the last few years, in Colombia and Peru and Bolivia.看看大的增長，可卡因的生產已發生爆炸，在安第斯山脈在過去幾年中，在哥倫比亞和秘魯和玻利維亞。 Why are Bolivian peasants, for instance, producing coca?為什麼玻利維亞農民，舉例來說，生產的古柯？ The neo-liberal structural adjustment policies of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, which are run by the US, try to drive peasants into agro-export, producing not for local consumption but for sale abroad.新自由主義結構調整政策的世界銀行和國際貨幣基金，該基金是由美國，嘗試，以推動農民到農產出口，生產不供當地消費，但在國外出售。 They want to reduce social programs, like spending for health and education, cutting government deficits by increasing exports.他們希望，以減少社會計劃，如開支為衛生和教育，減少政府赤字，增加出口。 And they cut back tariffs so that we can then pour our own highly subsidized food exports into their countries, which of course, undercuts peasant production.他們削減關稅，使我們可以傾訴，然後我們自己的高度補貼的糧食出口到他們的國家，當然，削弱了農民的生產。 Put all that together and what do you get?把所有這一起，你有什麼呢？ You get a huge increase in Bolivian coca production, as their only comparative advantage.你得到大幅增加，在玻利維亞古柯生產，作為其唯一的比較優勢。

The same is true in Colombia, where US “food for peace” aid, as it is called, was used to undercut or destroy wheat production by essentially giving food - at what amounts to US taxpayer expense - through US agro-exporters to undercut wheat production there, which later cut coffee production and their ability to set prices in any reasonable fashion.也是一樣，在哥倫比亞，美國“食品換和平”原則的援助，因為它是所謂的，被用來削弱或摧毀小麥生產基本上是給予食物-在什麼數額，以美國納稅人的費用-通過美國農業出口商削弱小麥生產有，後來減少咖啡的生產和他們的能力，訂定價格，在任何合理的方式。 And the end result is they turn to something else, and one of the things they turn to is coca production.和最終的結果是，他們談的東西，否則，事情之一，他們談的是古柯生產。 In fact, if you look at the total effect of US policies, it has been to increase drugs.事實上，如果你看的總體影響美國的政策，已增加藥物。

HIGH TIMES: Well, anybody who looks into the history of American drug policies in this century… 高時代：好，誰的人看來，進入歷史的美國毒品政策在本世紀…

NOAM CHOMSKY: I’m putting aside another factor altogether, namely clandestine warfare.諾姆喬姆斯基：我撇開另一個因素加起來，即秘密戰。 If you look into the history of what is called the CIA, which means the US White House, its secret wars, clandestine warfare, the trail of drug production just follows.如果你看看到的歷史，什麼是所謂的美國中央情報局，這意味著美國白宮，其秘密戰爭，秘密戰，步道的毒品生產只是如下。 It started in France after the Second World War when the United States was essentially trying to re-institute the traditional social order, to rehabilitate Fascist collaborators, wipe out the Resistance and destroy the unions and so on.它開始在法國在第二次世界大戰後，當美國基本上是試圖重新研究所，傳統社會秩序，恢復法西斯的合作者，消滅抵抗，並摧毀工會等。 The first thing they did was re-constitute the Mafia, as strikebreakers or for other such useful services.第一件事，他們所做的重新構成了黑手黨，作為strikebreakers ，或作其他如有用的服務。 And the Mafia doesn’t do it for fun, so there was a tradeoff: Essentially, they allowed them to re-institute the heroin-production system, which had been destroyed by the Fascists.和黑手黨沒有做它的樂趣，所以是一種權衡：基本上，他們，讓他們重新學會海洛因的生產系統，該系統已被摧毀，由法西斯。 The Fascists tended to run a pretty tight ship: They didn’t want any competition, so they wiped out the Mafia.法西斯傾向而言是相當緊迫的船舶：他們不希望任何競爭，所以他們消滅黑手黨。 But the US re-constituted it, first in southern Italy, and then in southern France with the Corsican Mafia.但美國重新構成了它，首先在意大利南部，然後在法國南部與科西嘉黑手黨。 That’s where the famous French Connection comes from.這也就是著名的法國方面從何而來。

That was the main heroin center for many years.這是海洛因的主要中心多年。 Then US terrorist activities shifted over to Southeast Asia.當時的美國恐怖活動轉移到東南亞。 If you want to carry out terrorist activities, you need local people to do it for you, and you also need secret money to pay for it, clandestine hidden money.如果你想從事恐怖活動，您需要當地人民這樣做，您還需要秘密的錢來支付的話，秘密隱藏的金錢。 Well, if you need to hire thugs and murderers with secret money, there aren’t many options.那麼，如果您需要聘請暴徒和殺人犯與秘密資金，有沒有很多的選擇。 One of them is the drug connection.其中之一就是藥物方面。 The so-called Golden Triangle around Burma, Laos and Thailand became a big drug-producing area with the help of the United States, as part of the secret wars against those populations.這個所謂的金三角靠近緬甸，老撾和泰國已成為一個很大的毒品生產地區的幫助下，美國作為部分的秘密戰爭，對那些人口。

In Central America, it was partly exposed in the Contra hearings, though it was mostly suppressed.在中美洲，這是部分暴露在孔特拉的聽證會，雖然它主要是打壓。 But there’s no question that the Reagan administration’s terrorist operations in Central America were closely connected with drug trafficking.但毫無疑問，美國裡根政府的恐怖活動在中美洲的人密切相關，與販毒有關。 Afghanistan became one of the biggest centers of drug trafficking in the world in the 1980s, because that was the payoff for the forces to which the US was contributing millions of dollars: the same extreme Islamic fundamentalists who are now tearing the country to shreds.阿富汗成為其中一個最大的中心，販毒，在世界上在20世紀80年代，因為這是回報為力量，其中美國貢獻數百萬美元的：同樣的極端伊斯蘭原教旨主義誰現在撕裂國家shreds 。 It’s been true throughout the world.它的真正被整個世界。 It’s not that the US is trying to increase the use of drugs, it’s just the natural thing to do.這並不是說美國正試圖以增加使用藥物，這只是自然的事。 If you were in a position where you had to hire thugs and gangsters to kill peasants and break strikes, and you had to do it with untraceable money, what would come to your mind?如果你在一個位置在那兒，你不得不僱用暴徒和流氓殺死農民，並打破罷工，和你不得不這樣做與追查的錢，會怎樣來您的想法呢？

HIGH TIMES: Where do you stand on drug legalization? 高時代：如果你的立場，毒品合法化呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Nobody knows what the effect would be.諾姆喬姆斯基：沒有人知道什麼效果會。 Anyone who tells you they know is just stupid or lying, because nobody knows.任何人誰告訴你他們知道，只是愚蠢或說謊，因為沒有人知道。 These are things that have to be tried, you have to experiment to see what the effects are.這些事情都必須嘗試，你必須實驗，看看有什麼效果。 Most soft drugs are already legal, mainly alcohol and tobacco.最軟性毒品，已經法律，主要是酒精和煙草。 Tobacco is by far the biggest killer among all the psychoactives.煙草是迄今為止最大的殺手各psychoactives 。 Alcohol deaths are a little hard to estimate, because an awful lot of violent deaths are associated with alcohol.酒精的死亡是一個小難以估計的，因為一個可怕的大量的暴力死亡是與酒精。 Way down below come “hard” drugs, a tiny fraction of the deaths from alcohol or tobacco, maybe ten or twenty thousand deaths per year.下來，下面來“硬”的藥物，一小部分死亡，從酒精或煙草，也許10或2.0萬人死亡，每年。 The fastest-growing hard drugs are the APS, amphetamine-type substances, produced mostly in the US增長最快的硬性毒品是旱廁，安非他明類物質，產生的大多是在美國

As far as the rest of the drugs are concerned, marijuana is not known to be very harmful.據其餘的藥物而言，大麻是不知道要十分有害的。 I mean, it’s generally assumed it’s not good for you, but coffee isn’t good for you, tea isn’t good for you, chocolate cake isn’t good for you either.我的意思是，它的一般假定它的不好的你，但咖啡是不好的你，茶是不好的你，巧克力蛋糕是不好的為您。 It would be crazy to criminalize coffee, even though it’s harmful.這將是瘋狂的刑事罪論處咖啡，即使它的有害的。 The United States is one of very few countries where this is considered a moral issue.美國是目前為數極少的國家，這被認為是一個道義問題。 In most countries you don’t have politicians getting up screaming about how tough they’re going to be on drugs.在大多數國家，您沒有政客起床尖叫有關如何強硬，他們要去予以關於毒品。 So the first thing we’ve got to do is move it out of the phase of population control, and into the sphere of social issues.因此，第一件事，我們必須做的，是其移出階段，人口控制，進入領域的社會問題。 The Rand Corporation estimates that if you compare the effect of criminal programs versus educational programs at reducing drug use, educational programs are way ahead, by about a factor of seven.蘭德公司估計，如果您比較的影響，刑事程序銀兩教育項目在減少藥物的使用，教學計劃，是前進的道路上，約一個因素7 。

HIGH TIMES: But alarmist drug-propaganda programs like DARE and the Partnership for a Drug-Free America’s TV ads have been found to increase experimentation among teenagers. 高時代：危言聳聽，但毒品的宣傳節目一樣，不敢和夥伴關係的一個無毒品美國的電視廣告已發現，以增加實驗的青少年。

NOAM CHOMSKY: The question is, what kind of education are you doing?諾姆喬姆斯基：問題是，什麼樣的教育，您在做什麼？ Educational programs aren’t the only category.教育節目是不是唯一的類別。 Education also has to do with the social circumstances in which drugs are used.教育也必須與社會在何種情況下，藥物的使用。 The answer to that is not throwing people in jail.答案是沒有人扔在監獄裡。 The answer is to try and figure what’s going on in their lives, their family; do they need medical care and so on?答案是嘗試和數字是怎麼回事就在他們的生活，他們的家人;做他們需要的醫療照顧等？ This very striking decline in substance abuse among educated sectors, as I said, goes across the spectrum - red meat, coffee, tobacco, everything.這非常引人注目的下降，藥物濫用的教育部門，正如我所說，當然整個頻譜-紅色肉類，咖啡，煙草，一切。 That’s education.這就是教育。 It wasn’t that there was an educational program that said to stop drinking coffee, it’s just that attitudes toward oneself and towards health, how we live and so on, changed among the more educated sectors of the population, and these things went down.這是不是有一個教育計劃，表示要停止喝咖啡，它的，只是態度和對自己的健康，我們如何生活等等，改變了其中較受教育的人口階層，和這些東西去向下的。 And none of it had to do with criminalization.沒有它不得不與刑事定罪。 It just had to do with a rise in the culture and educational level, which led to more care for oneself.它只是不得不做一個崛起在文化和教育水平，從而導致更多的照顧自己。

SOURCE: Excerpted from the April, 1998, issue of High Times Magazine.資料來源：摘自1998年4月，過高的問題的時代雜誌。

See More: 看到更多的： Drugs 藥物

Have Your Say: Noam Chomsky on Marijuana 你說：諾姆喬姆斯基對大麻
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