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Monday, June 2nd, 2008 周一， 2008年6月2日

By John Veit - HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE | A hundred years from now, Avram Noam Chomsky is going to figure in the history books as the prime voice of conscience, dissent and reason in the wars and social catastrophes of the late 20 ^th century.由约翰veit -高时代杂志|百年从现在起， a vram诺姆乔姆斯基去的数字，在历史书籍作为首要良心的声音，不同意见和理由，在战争和社会灾难的后期， 2 ^0世纪。 At the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the 1950s, he began an intellectual revolution in the understanding of linguistics which very efficiently challenged and subverted the old knee-jerk behavioristic worldview that nourished the Cold War.在麻省理工学院技术在20世纪50年代，他开始一个知识分子的革命的理解，语言学，这非常有效率的挑战和颠覆旧的条件反射behavioristic世界观营养冷战。 His seamless critical essays on American foreign and domestic policies since then have unerringly diagnosed their fallacies, relentlessly dissecting the propaganda of the power establishment.他的散文无缝的关键美国外交和国内政策，自那时以来已unerringly诊断其歪理邪说，无情地解剖，宣传的权力，设立。 We thought it was time he addressed the Drug War.我们认为这是时间，他处理禁毒战争。

HIGH TIMES: You’ve defined the War on Drugs as an instrument of population control. 高时代：您已经确定了战争对毒品的一种手段控制人口增长。 How does it accomplish that? 它如何完成呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Population control is actually a term I borrowed from the counterinsurgency literature of the Kennedy years.诺姆乔姆斯基：控制人口增长其实是一个长远的我借来从反文学的坚尼地年。 The main targets at the time were Southeast Asia and Latin America, where there was an awful lot popular ferment.主要目标是在当时的东南亚和拉丁美洲，那里是一个可怕的很多受欢迎的发酵。 They recognized that the population was supporting popular forces that were calling for all kinds of social change that the United States simply could not tolerate.他们认识到，人口是支持人民力量被要求为所有种的社会变革，美国根本无法容忍。 And you could control people in a number of ways.和你可以控制的人在若干方面。 One way was just by terror and violence, napalm bombing and so on, but they also worked on developing other kinds of population-control measures to keep people subjugated, ranging from propaganda to concentration camps.方法之一是刚刚由恐怖和暴力，凝固汽油弹轰炸等，但他们还致力于发展其他种的人口控制措施，以保持人征服，从宣传到集中营。 Propaganda is much more effective when it is combined with terror.宣传是更为有效时，它是结合恐怖。

You have the same problem domestically, where the public is constantly getting out of control.你有同样的问题在国内，如果市民是不断失控。 You have to carry out measures to insure that they remain passive and apathetic and obedient, and don’t interfere with privilege and power.你必须进行的措施，以保证他们仍然被动和漠不关心和听话，不干预的特权和权力。 It’sa major theme of modern democracy.这是主要的主题，现代民主。 As the mechanisms of democracy expand, like enfranchisement and growth, the need to control people by other means increases.作为民主机制，扩大一样，政治权利和增长，需要控制的人以其他方式增加。

So the growth of corporate propaganda in the United States more or less parallels the growth of democracy, for quite straightforward reasons.因此，增长的企业宣传，在美国更多或更少的平行增长，民主，非常简单的原因。 It’s not any kind of secret.这不是任何种类的秘密。 It is discussed very frankly and openly in business literature and academic social-science journals.这是非常坦率的讨论，并公开在业务上文学和学术的社会科学期刊。 You have to “fight the everlasting battle for the minds of men,” in their standard phraseology, to indoctrinate and regiment them in the way that armies regiment their bodies.你要“斗争，永恒的争夺战的头脑， ”在他们的标准用语，灌输和他们在团的方式，两军团他们的尸体。 Those are population-control measures.这些都是与人口控制措施。 This engineering or manufacture of consent is the essence of democracy, because you have to insure that ignorant and meddlesome outsiders - meaning, we, the people - don’t interfere with the work of the serious people who run public affairs in the interests of the privileged.这个工程或制造的同意，是民主的真谛，因为你要保证无知和meddlesome外人-意义，我们人民的-不干预的工作，严重的人，谁执行公共事务，在利益的享有特权。

HIGH TIMES: How does the War on Drugs fit into this? 高时代：如何打击毒品融入这个？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, one of the traditional and obvious ways of controlling people in every society, whether it’sa military dictatorship or a democracy, is to frighten them.诺姆乔姆斯基：好的，其中的传统和明显的方式控制人民，在每一个社会，无论是军事独裁或民主，是要吓唬他们。 If people are frightened, they’ll be willing to cede authority to their superiors who will protect them: “OK, I’ll let you run my life in order to protect me,” that sort of reasoning.如果人们害怕，他们将愿意割让管理局向上级谁将会保护他们： “确定，我会告诉您来说，我的生命，为了保护我， ”这种推理。

So the fear of drugs and fear of crime is very much stimulated by state and business propaganda.因此，恐惧，毒品和对犯罪的恐惧是非常刺激的国家和商业宣传。 The National Justice Commission repeatedly points out that crime in the United States, while sort of high, is not off the spectrum for industrial societies.国家司法委员会一再指出，犯罪在美国，而这类高，是不是小康的频谱为工业社会。 On the other hand, fear of crime is far beyond other societies, and mostly stimulated by various forms of propaganda.在另一方面，对犯罪的恐惧是远远超出其他社团，大多是刺激了各种形式的宣传。 The Drug War is an effort to stimulate fear of dangerous people from whom we have to protect ourselves.禁毒战争是一个努力，以刺激害怕危险的人从其中我们要保护我们自己。 It is also a direct form of control of what are called the “dangerous classes,” those superfluous people who don’t really have a function contributing to profit-making and wealth.这也是一个直接形式的管制，什么样的被称为“危险的班， ”这些多余的人谁不真的有功能的贡献牟利和财富。 They have to be somehow taken care of.他们必须在某种程度上照顾。

HIGH TIMES: In some other countries you just hang the rabble. 高时代：在其他一些国家你刚才挂乌合之众。

NOAM CHOMSKY: Yes, but in the US you don’t kill them, you put them in jail.诺姆乔姆斯基：是的，但在美国，你不杀死他们，你把他们送进监狱。 The economic policies of the 1980s sharply increased inequality, concentrating such economic growth as there was, which was not enormous, in very few hands.经济政策20世纪80年代急剧增加的不平等，集中力量，例如经济增长，因此，这是不是巨大的，在很少数人手中。 The top few percent of the population got extremely wealthy as profits went through the roof, and meanwhile median-income wages were stagnating or declining.顶端数％的人口得到非常富裕，作为利润经历了屋顶，同时中位数收入的工资停滞或下降。 People have to work harder, and public support systems for poor and hungry people have been declining sharply ever since the ’70s.人民要努力工作，和公众支持系统的贫穷和饥饿的人已大幅下降，自七十年代。 You’re getting a large mass of people who are insecure, suffering from difficulty or misery, or something in between.您收到一大块的人谁是不安全的，痛苦的从困难或痛苦，或一些在两者之间。 A lot of them basically are going to be arrested, because you have to control them.很多人，基本上是要被拘捕，因为你要控制它们。

The Drug War is used for that purpose.毒品战争是用于这一目的。 It very explicitly targets young black males.它非常明确的目标，年轻的黑人男性。 When the War on Drugs was re-declared in the late ’80s, Senator Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) pointed out that if you just look at social statistics, you can see that we are calling for a war against poor minorities, black males basically.当战争对药品重新宣布在八十年代末期，参议员帕特里克莫伊尼汉（四-纽约州）指出，如果你只是看看社会统计资料，您可以看到我们呼吁战争对穷人的少数民族，黑色，男性基本上。

HIGH TIMES: It’s obviously true, but how do you prove it? 高时代：它的明显事实，但你怎么证明这一点呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Just by looking at the trend lines for marijuana.诺姆乔姆斯基：只要看看在趋势线为大麻。 Marijuana use was peaking in the late ’70s, but there was not much criminalization.使用大麻是高峰期，在七十年代末期，但有没有太大的刑事定罪。 You didn’t go to jail for life for having marijuana then because the people using it were nice folks like us, the children of the rich.你没有去坐牢的生活有大麻，然后，因为人使用它是很好的乡亲跟我们一样，儿童的丰富。 You don’t throw them into jail any more than you throw corporate executives in jail - even though corporate crime is far more costly and dangerous than street crime.你不扔他们投入监狱的任何更多的比你丢公司行政人员在监狱中-即使公司犯罪是远远较昂贵的和危险的，比街头犯罪。 But then in the ’80s the use of various “unhealthy” substances started to decline among more educated sectors: marijuana and tobacco smoking, alcohol, red meat, coffee, this whole category of stuff.但后来在八十年代使用的各种“不健康”的物质开始下降，其中更多的教育部门：大麻和吸烟，酗酒，红色肉类，咖啡，这整类的东西。 On the other hand, usage remained steady among poorer sectors of the population.在另一方面，使用保持稳定之间的贫的人口阶层。 In the United States, poor and black correlate - they’re not identical, but there’sa correlation - and in poor, black and Hispanic sectors of the population the use of such substances remained pretty steady.在美国，穷人和黑人的相关性-它们并不相同，但有相关性-在穷人，黑人和拉美裔的人口阶层，使用这类物质的仍然相当稳定。

So take a look at those trend lines.因此，采取看看那些趋势线。 When you call for a War on Drugs, you know exactly who you are going to pick up: poor black people.当你调用一个战争对毒品的，你确实知道你是谁，要拿起：穷人的黑色人。 You’re not going to pick up rich white people; you don’t go after them anyway.您不打算拿起丰富的白色人;你不去后，他们无论如何。 In the upper-middle-class suburb where I live, if somebody goes home and sniffs some cocaine the police don’t break into their house.在上层的中产阶级郊区的地方，我住，如果有人回家和sniffs一些可卡因，警方并没有破门进入他们的房子。

So there are many factors making the Drug War a war against the poor, largely poor people of color.因此，有许多因素，使毒品的战争，战争对穷人的，主要是贫困人口的颜色。 And those are the people they have to get rid of.这些都是人民的他们要摆脱。 During the period these economic policies were being instituted, the incarceration rate was shooting up, but crime wasn’t, it was steady or declining.期间，这些经济政策被提起，监禁率是射击，但不是犯罪，这是稳定或下降。 But imprisonment went way up.但到监禁的方式。 By the late ’80s, in terms of imprisoning our population, we were way ahead of the rest of the world, way ahead of any other industrial society.由八十年代末期，在条款监禁我们的人口，我们前进的道路上的世界其余地区，前进的道路上的任何其他工业社会。

HIGH TIMES: Who benefits from incarcerating young black males? 高时代：谁是受益者，从监禁年轻黑人男性？

NOAM CHOMSKY: A lot of people.诺姆乔姆斯基：有很多人。 Poor people are basically superfluous for wealth production, and therefore the wealthy want to get rid of them.贫困人口基本上是多余的财富生产，因此，富人要摆脱他们。 The rich also frighten everyone else, because if you’re afraid of these people, then you submit to state authority.有钱人还吓唬大家，否则，因为如果您怕这些人，那么你提交给国家权力。 But beyond that, it’sa state industry.但除此之外，这是国家的产业。 Since the 1930s, every businessman has understood that a private capitalist economy must have massive state subsidies; the only question is what form that state subsidy will take.自20世纪30年代，每一个商人了解，私人资本主义经济必须有大量的国家补贴;唯一的问题是何种形式的国家补贴将采取。 In the United States the main form has been through the military system.在美国的主要形式，已通过军事系统。 The most dynamic aspects of the economy - computers, the Internet, the aeronautical industry, pharmaceuticals - have fed off the military system.最有活力的方面的经济-电脑，互联网，航空业，制药业-美联储小康的军事制度。 But the crime-control industry, as it’s called by criminologists, is becoming the fastest-growing industry in America.但犯罪控制工业，因为它的所谓的犯罪，正在成为增长最快的行业在美国。

And it’sa state industry, publicly funded.这是国家和产业，以公帑资助的。 It’s the construction industry, the real-estate industry, and also high-tech firms.它的建造业，房地产业，也是高科技企业。 It’s gotten to a scale sufficient that high-technology and military contractors are looking to it as a market for techniques of high-tech control and surveillance, so you can monitor what people do in their private activities with complicated electronic devices and supercomputers: monitoring their telephone calls and urinalyses and so forth.它得到了一个规模足够高的技术和军事承包商正在寻找它作为一个市场，为技术的高科技控制和监视，使您可以监控什么人都在他们的私人活动，与复杂的电子设备和超级计算机：监测他们的电话和urinalyses等等。 In fact, the time will probably come when this superfluous population can be locked up in private apartments, not jails, and just monitored to track when they do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, go the wrong direction.事实上，在时间可能会来时，这是多余的人口可以被关在私人公寓，而不是监狱，和公正的监测，跟踪，当他们这样做是错误的事，说错误的东西，去了错误的方向。

HIGH TIMES: House arrest for the masses. 高时代：软禁群众。

It’s enough of an industry so that the major defense-industry firms are interested; you can read about it in The Wall Street Journal .它的足够的一个产业，使主要的国防工业公司有兴趣，您可以阅读有关它在华尔街日报 。 The big law firms and investment houses are interested: Merrill Lynch is floating big loans for prison construction.大律师事务所和投资的房子有兴趣：美林证券是浮动大的贷款监狱建设。 If you take the whole system, it’s probably approaching the scale of the Pentagon.如果您需要整个系统，这可能是接近的规模，五角大楼。

Also, this is a terrific workforce.此外，这是一个了不起的劳动力。 We hear a fuss about prison labor in China, but prison labor is standard here.我们听到做文章，监狱劳动，在中国，但监狱劳动标准是在这里。 It’s very cheap, it doesn’t organize, the workers don’t ask for rights, you don’t have to worry about health benefits because the public is paying for everything.它的非常便宜，这并不组织，工人没有要求的权利，你不用担心健康的好处，因为市民是付出的一切。 It’s what’s called a “flexible” workforce, the kind of thing economists like; you have the workers when you want them, and you throw them out when you don’t want them.它的什么所谓的“灵活”的劳动力，种的东西经济学家一样;你有没有工人当你想他们，你丢出来，当你不想他们。

And what’s more, it’s an old American tradition.什么的更多，它的一岁的美国传统。 There was a big industrial revolution in parts of the South in the early part of this century, in northern Georgia and Kentucky and Alabama, and it was based mostly around prison labor.有一个大的工业革命在部分南方，在本世纪初，在北部的格鲁吉亚和肯塔基州和阿拉巴马州，它是基于大多靠近监狱劳动。 The slaves had been technically freed, but after a few years they were basically slaves again.奴隶已经在技术上释放，但几年后，他们基本上都是奴隶。 One way of controlling them was to throw them in jail, where they became a controlled labor force.的方法之一，控制他们是丢他们送进监狱，在那里他们成为控制的劳动力。 That’s the core of the modern industrial revolution in the South, which continued in Georgia to the 1920s and to the Second World War in places like Mississippi.这是核心的现代工业革命在南方，继续在格鲁吉亚，以20世纪20年代，并在第二次世界战争的地方，像密西西比州。 (It should be noted that when “involuntary servitude” was abolished, the only exception was criminals convicted of crimes. WFI Editor ) （应该指出的是，当“非自愿劳役”被取消，唯一的例外是罪犯定罪的罪行。 wfi编者 ）

Now it’s being revived.现在的正在复苏。 In Oregon and California there’sa fairly substantial textile industry in the prisons, with exports to Asia.在俄勒冈州和加利福尼亚州有相当可观的纺织工业在监狱里，与对亚洲的出口。 At the very time people were complaining about prison labor in China, California and Oregon are exporting prison-made textiles to China.在非常费时人抱怨监狱劳动在中国，加利福尼亚州和俄勒冈州出口监狱作出的对中国的纺织品。 They even have a line called, “Prison Blues.”他们甚至有一个所谓的路线， “监狱蓝调” 。

And it goes all the way up to advanced technology like data processing.和这是不言而喻的所有方式最多的先进技术一样，数据处理。 In the state of Washington, Boeing workers are protesting the export of jobs to China, but they’re probably unaware that their jobs are being exported to nearby prisons, where machinists are doing work for Boeing under circumstances that the management is delighted over, for obvious reasons.在华盛顿州，波音公司工人抗议的出口，就业机会，中国，但他们很可能不知道他们的工作已出口到附近的监狱，那里的机械师正在做的工作，为波音公司的情况下的管理很高兴，为显而易见的原因。

HIGH TIMES: And most of these prisoners are now nonviolent drug offenders. 高时代：和大部分的这些囚犯，现在非暴力毒品罪犯。

NOAM CHOMSKY: The enormous rate of growth of the prison population has been mostly drug-related.诺姆乔姆斯基：巨大的增长速度监狱人口已大多是与毒品有关。 The last figures I saw showed that over half the federal prison population, and maybe a quarter in state prisons, are drug offenders.最近我看到的数字表明，超过一半的联邦监狱人口，也许一季度在国家监狱，是毒品罪犯。 In New York State, for example, a twenty-dollar street sale or possession of an ounce of cocaine will get you the same sentence as arson with intent to murder.在纽约州，例如，一个20美元的街出售或藏有一盎司的可卡因，让您同一句话列为纵火意图谋杀罪。 The three-strikes legislation is going to blow it right through the sky.三罢工立法是要打击它的权利，透过天空。 The third arrest can be for some minor drug offense, and you’ll go to jail forever.第三逮捕，可以对一些轻微毒品罪，且您将前往监狱服刑也永远。 (Another side effect of the three-strikes laws has been a dramatic increase in the number of high-speed police car chases, and car-chase-related car accidents. Knowing that they are up against a life sentence, even petty criminals try to escape now, instead of surrendering. WFI Editor ) （另一边的影响，三罢工的法律一直是人数急剧增加的高速一辆警车追逐，及汽车追逐有关的车祸。明知他们是对被判处终身监禁，即使是轻罪犯人尝试逃生现在，而不是投降。 wfi编者 ）

HIGH TIMES: The Drug Czar’s office estimates that Americans spend $57 billion annually on illegal drugs. 高时代：药物沙皇的办公室估计，美国人花费570亿美元，每年的非法毒品。 What effect does this have on the global economy? 有什么影响，这是否已对全球经济的呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the United Nations tries to monitor the international drug trade, and their estimates are on the order of $400 to $500 billion - half a trillion dollars a year - in trade alone, which makes it higher than oil, something like 10 percent of world trade.诺姆乔姆斯基：好，联合国试图以监测国际毒品贸易，以及他们的估计是对秩序的400元到5000亿美元-半年万亿美元1年-在贸易单，这使得高于石油，像1 0 ％的世界贸易。 Where this money goes to is mostly unknown, but general estimates are that maybe 60 % of it passes through US banks.如果这笔钱去大多是未知的，但一般的估计是，也许有60 ％的，它通过美国银行。 After that, a lot goes to offshore tax havens.之后，很多去境外避税。 It’s so obscure that nobody monitors it, and nobody wants to.它的模糊，没有人监督它，没有人愿意。 But the Commerce Department every year publishes figures on foreign direct investment, where US investment is going, and through the ’90s the big excitement has been the “new emerging markets” like Latin America.但商业部每年发布的数字，外国直接投资，其中美国的投资是持续，并通过了九十年代大的兴奋已被“新兴市场”一样，拉丁美洲。 And it turns out that a quarter of US foreign direct investment is going to Bermuda, another 15% to the Bahamas and Cayman Islands, another 10% to Panama, and so on.和原来一个季度美国的外国直接投资是前往百慕大，另有15 ％ ，巴哈马和开曼群岛，另有10 ％到巴拿马，等等。 Now, they’re not building steel factories.现在，它们就不会建设钢铁工厂。 The most benign interpretation is that it’s just tax havens.最良性的解释是，这只是避税。 And the less benign interpretation is that it’s one way of passing illegal money into places where it will not be monitored.和较低的良性的解释是，它的方法之一，通过非法资金投入的地方，它不会被监控。 We really don’t know, because it is not investigated.我们真的不知道，因为它是没有调查。 This is not the task of the Justice Department, which is to go after a black kid in the ghetto who has a joint in his pocket.这是没有的任务，司法部，这是去后，一个黑色的孩子，在贫民区谁已联合在他的口袋。

HIGH TIMES: What do you think of the US policy of offering trade and aid favors to countries who promulgate so-called anti-drug initiatives? 高时代：您怎么看美国的政策，提供贸易和援助的国家主张谁颁布，使所谓的反毒品的倡议？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Actually, US programs radically increase the use of drugs.诺姆乔姆斯基：其实，美国计划从根本上增加使用的药物。 Look at the big growth in cocaine production that has exploded in the Andes over the last few years, in Colombia and Peru and Bolivia.看看大的增长，可卡因的生产已发生爆炸，在安第斯山脉在过去几年中，在哥伦比亚和秘鲁和玻利维亚。 Why are Bolivian peasants, for instance, producing coca?为什么玻利维亚农民，举例来说，生产的古柯？ The neo-liberal structural adjustment policies of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, which are run by the US, try to drive peasants into agro-export, producing not for local consumption but for sale abroad.新自由主义结构调整政策的世界银行和国际货币基金，该基金是由美国，尝试，以推动农民到农产出口，生产不供当地消费，但在国外出售。 They want to reduce social programs, like spending for health and education, cutting government deficits by increasing exports.他们希望，以减少社会计划，如开支为卫生和教育，减少政府赤字，增加出口。 And they cut back tariffs so that we can then pour our own highly subsidized food exports into their countries, which of course, undercuts peasant production.他们削减关税，使我们可以倾诉，然后我们自己的高度补贴的粮食出口到他们的国家，当然，削弱了农民的生产。 Put all that together and what do you get?把所有这一起，你有什么呢？ You get a huge increase in Bolivian coca production, as their only comparative advantage.你得到大幅增加，在玻利维亚古柯生产，作为其唯一的比较优势。

The same is true in Colombia, where US “food for peace” aid, as it is called, was used to undercut or destroy wheat production by essentially giving food - at what amounts to US taxpayer expense - through US agro-exporters to undercut wheat production there, which later cut coffee production and their ability to set prices in any reasonable fashion.也是一样，在哥伦比亚，美国“食品换和平”原则的援助，因为它是所谓的，被用来削弱或摧毁小麦生产基本上是给予食物-在什么数额，以美国纳税人的费用-通过美国农业出口商削弱小麦生产有，后来减少咖啡的生产和他们的能力，订定价格，在任何合理的方式。 And the end result is they turn to something else, and one of the things they turn to is coca production.和最终的结果是，他们谈的东西，否则，事情之一，他们谈的是古柯生产。 In fact, if you look at the total effect of US policies, it has been to increase drugs.事实上，如果你看的总体影响美国的政策，已增加药物。

HIGH TIMES: Well, anybody who looks into the history of American drug policies in this century… 高时代：好，谁的人看来，进入历史的美国毒品政策在本世纪…

NOAM CHOMSKY: I’m putting aside another factor altogether, namely clandestine warfare.诺姆乔姆斯基：我撇开另一个因素加起来，即秘密战。 If you look into the history of what is called the CIA, which means the US White House, its secret wars, clandestine warfare, the trail of drug production just follows.如果你看看到的历史，什么是所谓的美国中央情报局，这意味着美国白宫，其秘密战争，秘密战，步道的毒品生产只是如下。 It started in France after the Second World War when the United States was essentially trying to re-institute the traditional social order, to rehabilitate Fascist collaborators, wipe out the Resistance and destroy the unions and so on.它开始在法国在第二次世界大战后，当美国基本上是试图重新研究所，传统社会秩序，恢复法西斯的合作者，消灭抵抗，并摧毁工会等。 The first thing they did was re-constitute the Mafia, as strikebreakers or for other such useful services.第一件事，他们所做的重新构成了黑手党，作为strikebreakers ，或作其他如有用的服务。 And the Mafia doesn’t do it for fun, so there was a tradeoff: Essentially, they allowed them to re-institute the heroin-production system, which had been destroyed by the Fascists.和黑手党没有做它的乐趣，所以是一种权衡：基本上，他们，让他们重新学会海洛因的生产系统，该系统已被摧毁，由法西斯。 The Fascists tended to run a pretty tight ship: They didn’t want any competition, so they wiped out the Mafia.法西斯倾向而言是相当紧迫的船舶：他们不希望任何竞争，所以他们消灭黑手党。 But the US re-constituted it, first in southern Italy, and then in southern France with the Corsican Mafia.但美国重新构成了它，首先在意大利南部，然后在法国南部与科西嘉黑手党。 That’s where the famous French Connection comes from.这也就是著名的法国方面从何而来。

That was the main heroin center for many years.这是海洛因的主要中心多年。 Then US terrorist activities shifted over to Southeast Asia.当时的美国恐怖活动转移到东南亚。 If you want to carry out terrorist activities, you need local people to do it for you, and you also need secret money to pay for it, clandestine hidden money.如果你想从事恐怖活动，您需要当地人民这样做，您还需要秘密的钱来支付的话，秘密隐藏的金钱。 Well, if you need to hire thugs and murderers with secret money, there aren’t many options.那么，如果您需要聘请暴徒和杀人犯与秘密资金，有没有很多的选择。 One of them is the drug connection.其中之一就是药物方面。 The so-called Golden Triangle around Burma, Laos and Thailand became a big drug-producing area with the help of the United States, as part of the secret wars against those populations.这个所谓的金三角靠近缅甸，老挝和泰国已成为一个很大的毒品生产地区的帮助下，美国作为部分的秘密战争，对那些人口。

In Central America, it was partly exposed in the Contra hearings, though it was mostly suppressed.在中美洲，这是部分暴露在孔特拉的听证会，虽然它主要是打压。 But there’s no question that the Reagan administration’s terrorist operations in Central America were closely connected with drug trafficking.但毫无疑问，美国里根政府的恐怖活动在中美洲的人密切相关，与贩毒有关。 Afghanistan became one of the biggest centers of drug trafficking in the world in the 1980s, because that was the payoff for the forces to which the US was contributing millions of dollars: the same extreme Islamic fundamentalists who are now tearing the country to shreds.阿富汗成为其中一个最大的中心，贩毒，在世界上在20世纪80年代，因为这是回报为力量，其中美国贡献数百万美元的：同样的极端伊斯兰原教旨主义谁现在撕裂国家shreds 。 It’s been true throughout the world.它的真正被整个世界。 It’s not that the US is trying to increase the use of drugs, it’s just the natural thing to do.这并不是说美国正试图以增加使用药物，这只是自然的事。 If you were in a position where you had to hire thugs and gangsters to kill peasants and break strikes, and you had to do it with untraceable money, what would come to your mind?如果你在一个位置在那儿，你不得不雇用暴徒和流氓杀死农民，并打破罢工，和你不得不这样做与追查的钱，会怎样来您的想法呢？

HIGH TIMES: Where do you stand on drug legalization? 高时代：如果你的立场，毒品合法化呢？

NOAM CHOMSKY: Nobody knows what the effect would be.诺姆乔姆斯基：没有人知道什么效果会。 Anyone who tells you they know is just stupid or lying, because nobody knows.任何人谁告诉你他们知道，只是愚蠢或说谎，因为没有人知道。 These are things that have to be tried, you have to experiment to see what the effects are.这些事情都必须尝试，你必须实验，看看有什么效果。 Most soft drugs are already legal, mainly alcohol and tobacco.最软性毒品，已经法律，主要是酒精和烟草。 Tobacco is by far the biggest killer among all the psychoactives.烟草是迄今为止最大的杀手各psychoactives 。 Alcohol deaths are a little hard to estimate, because an awful lot of violent deaths are associated with alcohol.酒精的死亡是一个小难以估计的，因为一个可怕的大量的暴力死亡是与酒精。 Way down below come “hard” drugs, a tiny fraction of the deaths from alcohol or tobacco, maybe ten or twenty thousand deaths per year.下来，下面来“硬”的药物，一小部分死亡，从酒精或烟草，也许10或2.0万人死亡，每年。 The fastest-growing hard drugs are the APS, amphetamine-type substances, produced mostly in the US增长最快的硬性毒品是旱厕，安非他明类物质，产生的大多是在美国

As far as the rest of the drugs are concerned, marijuana is not known to be very harmful.据其余的药物而言，大麻是不知道要十分有害的。 I mean, it’s generally assumed it’s not good for you, but coffee isn’t good for you, tea isn’t good for you, chocolate cake isn’t good for you either.我的意思是，它的一般假定它的不好的你，但咖啡是不好的你，茶是不好的你，巧克力蛋糕是不好的为您。 It would be crazy to criminalize coffee, even though it’s harmful.这将是疯狂的刑事罪论处咖啡，即使它的有害的。 The United States is one of very few countries where this is considered a moral issue.美国是目前为数极少的国家，这被认为是一个道义问题。 In most countries you don’t have politicians getting up screaming about how tough they’re going to be on drugs.在大多数国家，您没有政客起床尖叫有关如何强硬，他们要去予以关于毒品。 So the first thing we’ve got to do is move it out of the phase of population control, and into the sphere of social issues.因此，第一件事，我们必须做的，是其移出阶段，人口控制，进入领域的社会问题。 The Rand Corporation estimates that if you compare the effect of criminal programs versus educational programs at reducing drug use, educational programs are way ahead, by about a factor of seven.兰德公司估计，如果您比较的影响，刑事程序银两教育项目在减少药物的使用，教学计划，是前进的道路上，约一个因素7 。

HIGH TIMES: But alarmist drug-propaganda programs like DARE and the Partnership for a Drug-Free America’s TV ads have been found to increase experimentation among teenagers. 高时代：危言耸听，但毒品的宣传节目一样，不敢和伙伴关系的一个无毒品美国的电视广告已发现，以增加实验的青少年。

NOAM CHOMSKY: The question is, what kind of education are you doing?诺姆乔姆斯基：问题是，什么样的教育，您在做什么？ Educational programs aren’t the only category.教育节目是不是唯一的类别。 Education also has to do with the social circumstances in which drugs are used.教育也必须与社会在何种情况下，药物的使用。 The answer to that is not throwing people in jail.答案是没有人扔在监狱里。 The answer is to try and figure what’s going on in their lives, their family; do they need medical care and so on?答案是尝试和数字是怎么回事就在他们的生活，他们的家人;做他们需要的医疗照顾等？ This very striking decline in substance abuse among educated sectors, as I said, goes across the spectrum - red meat, coffee, tobacco, everything.这非常引人注目的下降，药物滥用的教育部门，正如我所说，当然整个频谱-红色肉类，咖啡，烟草，一切。 That’s education.这就是教育。 It wasn’t that there was an educational program that said to stop drinking coffee, it’s just that attitudes toward oneself and towards health, how we live and so on, changed among the more educated sectors of the population, and these things went down.这是不是有一个教育计划，表示要停止喝咖啡，它的，只是态度和对自己的健康，我们如何生活等等，改变了其中较受教育的人口阶层，和这些东西去向下的。 And none of it had to do with criminalization.没有它不得不与刑事定罪。 It just had to do with a rise in the culture and educational level, which led to more care for oneself.它只是不得不做一个崛起在文化和教育水平，从而导致更多的照顾自己。

SOURCE: Excerpted from the April, 1998, issue of High Times Magazine.资料来源：摘自1998年4月，过高的问题的时代杂志。

See More: 看到更多的： Drugs 药物

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