民主現在採取行動，國家安全局非法竊聽罪和戰爭罪

Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 星期二， 2008年10月14日

Democracy Now!現在的民主！ today not only admitted that I had broken the story but followed up on the story of illegal NSA spying, including the evidence of war crimes.今天不僅承認，我已破碎的故事，但後續的故事非法國內竊聽項目，包括證據的戰爭罪行。

Link to original鏈接到原始 . 。

James Bamford: “The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.”詹姆斯班福德： “影子工廠：超秘密國家安全局從9 / 11的竊聽美國。 ”

The Bush administration’s wiretapping program has come under new scrutiny this week.布什政府的竊聽計劃已經根據新的檢查這個星期。 Two influential congressional committees have opened probes into allegations US intelligence spied on the phone calls of American military personnel, journalists and aid workers in Iraq.兩個有影響力的國會委員會已經開始探討指控美國情報刺探電話的美國軍事人員，記者和救援人員在伊拉克。 We speak to James Bamford about the NSA’s spying on Americans, the agency’s failings pre-9/11 and the ties between NSA and the nation’s telecommunications companies.我們談到詹姆斯班福德的國家安全局的間諜活動的美國人，該機構的失誤pre-9/11和關係國家安全局和國家的電信公司。 [includes rush transcript–partial] [包括匆忙全文偏]

James Bamford, investigative reporter who has been covering the National Security Agency for the last three decades.詹姆斯班福德，調查記者，誰已涉及美國國家安全局在過去的三十年。 He came close to standing trial after revealing the NSA’s operations in his explosive 1982 book The Puzzle Palace.他差一點接受審判後，揭示了國家安全局的行動在他的書中爆炸性的1982年故宮的困惑。 His latest book, which comes out today, is the third in his trilogy on the NSA.他的最新著作，這是今天，是第三個在他的三部曲中的消極安全保證。 It’s called The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.它叫做影子工廠：超秘密國家安全局從9 / 11的竊聽美國。

This transcript is available free of charge.本記錄是免費提供的。 However, donations help us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our TV broadcast.然而，捐款幫助我們提供字幕聾人和聽力困難在我們的電視節目。 Thank you for your generous contribution.謝謝你的慷慨捐助。
Donate - $25, $50, $100, More…捐贈-2 5美元， 5 0美元， 1 00美元，更多. ..
Related Links相關鏈接

* AfterDowningStreet.com Coverage of NSA Spying AfterDowningStreet.com覆蓋國內竊聽

Related Democracy Now!現在相關的民主！ Stories故事

* DEMOCRACY NOW! *民主從速！ EXCLUSIVE: Fmr.獨家： Fmr 。 Military Intelligence Sgt.軍事情報軍士。 Reveals US Listed Palestine Hotel in Baghdad as Target Prior to Killing of Two Journalists in 2003 (5/13/2008)揭示美國上市巴勒斯坦飯店在巴格達的目標之前，殺害兩名記者在2003年（ 08年5月13號）

AMY GOODMAN: The Bush administration’s wiretapping program has come under new scrutiny this week.澱粉古德曼：布什政府的竊聽計劃已經根據新的檢查這個星期。 Two influential congressional committees have opened probes into allegations US intelligence spied on the phone calls of American military personnel, journalists and aid workers in Iraq.兩個有影響力的國會委員會已經開始探討指控美國情報刺探電話的美國軍事人員，記者和救援人員在伊拉克。 Senator Patrick Leahy and Senator Arlen Specter of the Senate Judiciary Committee and Senator Jay Rockefeller, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, say they want Congress to look into allegations from two former military intelligence officials.參議員萊希和參議員斯佩克特美國參議院司法委員會和參議員洛克菲勒，椅子的參議院情報委員會說，他們希望美國國會考慮指控兩名前軍事情報官員。

The two whistleblowers—Adrienne Kinne, an Army reservist, and David Murfee Faulk, a Navy linguist—spoke last Thursday to ABC News.這兩個舉報人，阿德里安娜克Kinne ，陸軍預備役和大衛Murfee Faulk ，海軍語言學家，上週四以向ABC新聞。 While the network claimed that marked the first time the two whistleblowers had come forward, they had both spoken out well before last week.雖然網絡聲稱，標誌著首次有兩名舉報人挺身而出，他們都談到了遠在上週。

Blogger David Swanson wrote about them as early as July 2007, and in her first broadcast interview five months ago, former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, detailed the spying on Democracy Now! Blogger的大衛斯萬森寫他們早在2007年7月，和她第一次廣播採訪5個月前，前軍事情報警長阿德里安娜克Kinne ，詳細介紹了關於民主間諜現在！ back in May.早在5月。

ADRIENNE KINNE: I was stationed at Fort Gordon, Georgia, and I was actually mobilized shortly after 9/11 with a group of reservists who were eventually sent to Fort Gordon to work a mission, that it was actually a brand new mission.阿德里安娜克KINNE ：我是駐紮在戈登堡，格魯吉亞，我實際上是動員後不久， 9 / 11的一組預備役誰最終被送往戈登堡的工作任務，它實際上是一個全新的使命。 It was something not like anything I had done in military intelligence previously.這是一些不喜歡什麼我做了在以前的軍事情報。 And this new mission involved the intercept of satellite phone communications in Iraq and Afghanistan and basically a huge swath of the region around those two countries.這一新的任務涉及到攔截的衛星電話通訊在伊拉克和阿富汗的基本上是一個巨大的條帶的周圍地區這兩個國家。 It was really brand new, and basically there were about twenty of us who were put in charge of this new mission, to stand it up.這是真正全新的，基本上大約有21對我們提出了誰負責這一新的使命，站在了。

In the very beginning, basically what we did was that we would have a front end, which intercepted satellite phone communications in that region, and then it would transmit the satellite phone conversations back to the United States, where it would just fill up this queue in our computer, and we would just go through.在一開始，基本上我們應做的事是，我們將有一個前端，其中攔截衛星電話通訊在該區域，然後將轉交衛星電話交談回到美國，在那裡它只是填補了這一隊列在我們的電腦，我們只想通過。 And all the numbers were unidentified.和所有的人數不明。 So, at the beginning, it was just a matter of sifting through thousands upon thousands of unidentified satellite phone communications, as we kind of tried to sort out what phone number belonged to who and kind of go through the process of identifying phone numbers in the search for intelligence that might be related to operations in Afghanistan and, later on, Iraq.所以，開始時，它只是一個時間的問題篩選成千上萬的身份不明的衛星電話通信，因為我們那種試圖理清什麼電話號碼屬於誰和一種經過查明電話號碼的搜索的情報，可能與在阿富汗的行動，以及後來的伊拉克。

AMY GOODMAN: And when were you listening to Iraq?澱粉良：當你收聽到伊拉克？

ADRIENNE KINNE: We started listening to the entire region pretty much immediately.阿德里安娜克KINNE ：我們開始聽整個地區幾乎立即。 I think this was December of 2001.我認為這是2001年12月。 And I was mobilized from October 2001 through August of 2003.我動員2001年10月通過2003年8月。 So I was working that mission pretty much from December through August of 2003.所以我的工作任務相當從12月通過2003年8月。

And over the course of my time, as we slowly began to identify phone numbers and who belonged to what, one thing that gave me grave concern was that as we identified phone numbers, we started to find more and more and more numbers that belonged not to any organizations affiliated with terrorism or with military—with militaries of Iraq or Afghanistan or elsewhere, but with humanitarian aid organizations, non-governmental organizations, who include the International Red Cross, Red Crescent, Doctors Without Borders, a whole host of humanitarian aid organizations.並在課程的時間，我們慢慢開始確定的電話號碼，誰屬於什麼，有一件事，讓我嚴重關切的是，我們確定了電話號碼，我們開始找到更多的和越來越多的數字，不屬於任何組織與恐怖主義有聯繫或與軍隊與軍隊的伊拉克或阿富汗或其他地方，但與人道主義援助組織，非政府組織，誰包括國際紅十字會，紅新月會，無國界醫生組織，一系列的人道主義援助組織。 And it also included journalists.它也包括記者。

AMY GOODMAN: Former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, speaking on Democracy Now!澱粉古德曼：前軍事情報警長阿德里安娜克Kinne ，講民主現在！ in May. 5 。 She and Navy linguist, David Murfee Faulk, were also interviewed for a new book on the National Security Agency by James Bamford, an investigative journalist and author of two earlier books on the agency.她和海軍的語言學家，大衛Murfee Faulk ，還採訪了一本新書，關於國家安全局詹姆斯班福德，一個調查記者和作家的前兩次書籍的機構。 Bamford is among the plaintiffs in a suit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of journalists, academics, aid workers and lawyers who feared they were targeted by government spying.班福德是在原告起訴的美國公民自由聯盟代表記者，學者，援助工作者和律師誰害怕他們有針對性的由政府從事間諜活動。 A federal appeals court dismissed the case last year after ruling the plaintiffs can’t prove they were monitored.聯邦上訴法院駁回此案後，去年裁決原告不能證明他們進行了監測。 The ACLU might reopen the suit to include the new revelations by Kinne and Faulk.美國公民自由聯盟可能重新適應，包括新披露的Kinne和Faulk 。

James Bamford has been covering the National Security Agency for the last three decades.詹姆斯班福德已涉及美國國家安全局在過去的三十年。 He came close to standing trial after revealing the NSA’s operations in his explosive 1982 book The Puzzle Palace.他差一點接受審判後，揭示了國家安全局的行動在他的書中爆炸性的1982年故宮的困惑。 His latest book, which comes out today, is the third in his trilogy on the NSA.他的最新著作，這是今天，是第三個在他的三部曲中的消極安全保證。 It’s called The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.它叫做影子工廠：超秘密國家安全局從9 / 11的竊聽美國。 Today, we spend the hour with James Bamford.今天，我們度過小時，詹姆斯班福德。 He joins us from Washington, DC他同我們從華盛頓特區

Welcome to Democracy Now!歡迎民主現在！

JAMES BAMFORD: Thanks, Amy.詹姆斯班福德：謝謝，艾米。 I appreciate it.我欣賞它。

AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us.澱粉良：很高興有您的光臨。 Well, let’s talk about Adrienne Kinne’s allegations, spying on Americans and international aid workers in Iraq.那麼，讓我們談論艾德里安Kinne的指控，從事間諜活動的美國人和國際援助人員在伊拉克。 What’s wrong with this?有什麼不好呢？

JAMES BAMFORD: Well, there’sa lot of things wrong with it.詹姆斯班福德：嗯，有很多事情錯誤的。 First of all, they’re wasting their time, when they should be spying on or trying to intercept communications to and from terrorists.首先，他們是浪費時間，當他們應該從事間諜活動或試圖攔截通信和恐怖分子。 That was one of the complaints that Adrienne had and also Murfee Faulk had, that they didn’t join the military to listen to Americans doing pillow talk, because a lot of this was intimate conversations between Americans and their spouses back in the United States.這是一個投訴，阿德里安娜克了，也Murfee Faulk了，他們沒有參加軍事聽美國人做枕頭說話，因為很多，這是親密交談美國人和他們的配偶回到美國。 They’ve been separated a long time, and you can imagine what a lot of those conversations dealt with.他們已經分開很長一段時間，你可以想像了很多人的談話處理。 They were very personal matters dealing with finance, affection, and so forth.他們非常個人事項處理財務，感情，等等。 So they felt that they were morally wrong by eavesdropping on these people and then just wasting government money and wasting their time by listening to things that had nothing to do with the war on terrorism.因此，他們認為他們是道義上是錯誤的竊聽這些人，然後政府只是浪費金錢和浪費時間聽的東西沒有什麼關係對恐怖主義的戰爭。

AMY GOODMAN: You know, it’s interesting.澱粉良：你知道，這很有趣。 One of the things Adrienne Kinne told us was that she was spying on journalists at the Palestine Hotel.的事情之一阿德里安娜克Kinne告訴我們，她是從事間諜活動的記者在巴勒斯坦飯店。 She knew they were journalists.她知道他們是記者。 She heard what they were saying over time.她聽到他們說隨著時間的推移。 Here she was in Georgia, but spying on those people, those journalists, in Iraq.在這裡，她在格魯吉亞，但從事間諜活動的那些人，那些記者，在伊拉克。 And she said she saw a document, she saw an email that put the Palestine Hotel on a—as a bombing target, and she immediately went to her superiors, because she was spying on them, she knew that they were journalists.她說她看到了一份文件，她看到一封電子郵件，把巴勒斯坦飯店的，作為轟炸目標，她立刻前往她的上司，因為她是從事間諜活動上，她知道他們是記者。 She said, “But there are journalists in that hotel.” She learned a lot in this spying.她說， “但是，記者在該酒店。 ”她學到了很多東西，在此從事間諜活動。 Is this illegal?這是非法的？

JAMES BAMFORD: Well, you know, it would have been illegal under the old original Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.詹姆斯班福德：那麼，你知道，那將是非法的舊的原始外國情報監視法案。 The way they’ve sort of contorted the new amendments to the act, it’s hard to tell what’s legal and what isn’t, because they’ve taken the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court largely out of the mix.他們的道路已經某種扭曲的新修訂的行為，很難說有什麼法律，什麼是不會，因為他們已經採取了外國情報監視法庭的主要組合。 And so, much of what is being done is governed by secret rules known as USSID 18, United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18, which is above top-secret.因此，大部分正在做的工作是由秘密的規則被稱為USSID 18日，美國的信號情報指令18日，這首先是絕密。 It’s top-secret code words.這是絕密的代碼的話。 So what is legal, what isn’t legal, it’s very hard to tell.什麼是合法的，什麼是不合法的，很難說。

And I think that’s why you really need a congressional committee to really take a look at this.我想這就是為什麼你真的需要一個國會委員會，真正來看看這個。 What really needs to happen is a very in-depth examination of NSA post/11—actually, pre-9/11 and post-9/11, the kind that was done in the mid-1970s by Senator Frank Church, the Church Committee.真正需要的是什麼發生是一個非常深入審查國安局post/11-actually ， pre-9/11和911 ，那種是在20世紀70年代中期由參議員弗蘭克教會，教會委員會。 I think that’s really the only way to get to the bottom of whether NSA messed up before the attacks on 9/11 and whether they’re doing things that are illegal or improper after 9/11.我認為這是真正的唯一途徑獲得的底部是否國安局搞砸之前，攻擊9 / 11 ，以及他們是否正在做的事情是非法或不當後， 9 / 11 。

AMY GOODMAN: What other allegations did the Navy linguist David Murfee Faulk make about what he was listening to in Iraq?澱粉良：什麼其他指控沒有海軍語言學家大衛Murfee Faulk什麼讓他聽在伊拉克？

JAMES BAMFORD: Well, he confirmed a lot of what Adrienne was saying.詹姆斯班福德：嗯，他證實了很多什麼阿德里安說。 And it’s interesting, because they cover such different times there.這很有趣，因為他們支付這些不同時期存在。 Adrienne was there from 2001 to August of 2003.阿德里安是從2001年8月， 2003年。 David Faulk was there from November of 2003 until November of 2007.大衛Faulk是從2003年11月至2007年11月。 So you have this time period covered from 2001 to 2007.所以，你有時間涵蓋2001年至2007年。 And they were both doing similar things.和他們兩個人做類似的事情。 They had never met each other.他們從來沒有見過對方。 So these are very independent views of what was going on over there.因此，這些都是非常獨立的看法發生了什麼事情就在那邊。 And so, you have this continuum from 2001 to 2007 of eavesdropping on Americans.因此，你有這個統一體2001至2007年的竊聽美國人。

One of the things that David Murfee Faulk brought up was the fact that not only were they eavesdropping on a lot of these conversations, some of which were very intimate, but they would have sort of locker room chats about what they were hearing, and they would post—or they would notify their co-workers that you should listen to this, what they call “cut,” their conversations.的事情之一就是大衛Murfee Faulk長大的事實是他們不但竊聽很多這樣的談話，其中有些是非常親密的，但他們將某種更衣室聊天什麼他們聽，他們會後，否則將通知他們的同事，你應該傾聽這一點，他們所謂的“禁” ，他們的談話。 You should listen to this conversation or that conversation.你應該聽這次談話，或談話。 They’d laugh about it.他們想笑了。 And, you know, I don’t really think that’s what the soldiers over there that are fighting really appreciate, the fact that you have Americans back in the state of Georgia laughing over their intimate conversations.而且，你知道，我真的不認為這是士兵在那裡的戰鬥非常感謝，事實上，你已經在美國喬治亞州笑著對自己親密的交談。

So, the other thing that David Murfee Faulk brought up that I thought was very important and really gave a good insight into what—how some of this activity that’s taking place in Iraq comes about, you know, when they’re dropping bombs on houses and neighborhoods and busting down doors and putting people into Abu Ghraib and so forth, how does that come about?因此，其他的事情大衛Murfee Faulk長大，我認為是非常重要的，真正給一個很好的了解什麼，怎樣一些這方面的活動是在伊拉克發生了約，你知道，當他們正在下降炸彈對房屋和街道和破壞大門，正派人進入阿布格萊布等等，請問這是什麼？ Why do they bust down this door or drop a bomb on that house?他們為什麼破滅了這個門或投彈就這個房子嗎？ And the insight he gave, I thought was very interesting.敏銳的洞察力和他，我覺得非常有趣。 He was saying how it’s these people here that are sitting in this windowless room in the state of Georgia, near Augusta, Georgia, that are listening to these conversations in Iraq, in Baghdad, and they’re making instantaneous decisions on whether somebody is telling the truth or not.他是怎麼說的這些人在這裡是坐在這個沒有窗戶的房間在喬治亞州，奧古斯塔附近，格魯吉亞，是聽這些談話在伊拉克，在巴格達，他們正使瞬時決定是否有人是講真話與否。 So they’re writing out these—they’re doing these transcripts, and then they’re writing these little comments saying this person here, Ali, is saying he’s going to deliver a load of melons to his cousin Mohammed tomorrow.因此他們就寫了這些， they're做這些筆錄，然後他們寫這些小評論說此人在這裡，阿里，是說他要提供一個負荷的瓜果，以他的堂兄弟穆罕默德的明天。 And then you have somebody making a decision: is he telling the truth, or isn’t he?然後您已有人作出決定：是他說真話，或不是嗎？ Are these melons, or possibly could they be IEDs?這些瓜果，或他們可能會被簡易爆炸裝置？ And if a person says, “You know, I don’t think he’s telling the truth,” there’sa good chance that that house could be blown up or that person could be put in Abu Ghraib, or whatever.如果一個人說： “你知道，我不認為他的講真話” ，有很好的機會，這房子可能會被炸毀或該人可在阿布格萊布，或者別的什麼東西。

And the point that David Mufee Faulk was making was that the people that are making these decisions, these sometimes life-and-death decisions, don’t have the proper training.並指出，大衛Mufee Faulk正在被人民所作出這些決定，這些有時是生死攸關的決定，沒有適當的訓練。 They’re trained for sixty-three weeks in Monterey, California in standard Arabic.他們是訓練有素的六十三週，加利福尼亞州蒙特里的標準阿拉伯語。 And what they’re listening to a lot of times is dialects that they don’t really understand, and they’re listening for nuances that they don’t really get, and idioms and so forth.和他們是怎麼聽很多時候是方言，他們不明白，他們正在聆聽的細微差別，他們並不真正得到的，和成語等等。 And I think it’s very dangerous, and what the point he was making was it was very dangerous for—you know, sometimes these are just people right out of high school to—that have never been out of the country, and certainly never been over to the Middle East, to make these sort of life-and-death decisions based on just hearing one conversation out of context.我認為這是非常危險的，什麼點，他決策是非常危險的，你知道，有時這些只是人民權利的高中生到這從來沒有離開該國，而且肯定不會一直到中東，以使這類生死攸關的基礎上作出決定聆訊只是一個談話的背景。

AMY GOODMAN: And they’re doing this from Fort Gordon, Georgia.澱粉良：他們這樣做的戈登堡，格魯吉亞。 Are they working for the NSA, the National Security Agency?他們工作的國家安全局，美國國家安全局？

JAMES BAMFORD: Yes.詹姆斯班福德：是的。 The way this works—a lot of people don’t really understand how this whole system works—the NSA is sort of two organizations in one; the director of NSA wears two hats.這一方式的作品，很多人並不真正了解這整個系統的運作，國家安全局是那種兩個組織之一的國家安全局局長戴兩個帽子。 If you ever get a letter from NSA or whatever, it says—the letterhead says, “National Security Agency/Central Security Service.” And the director always signs his name “Director NSA/Chief CSS.”如果你有機會的信或任何消極安全保證，它說，抬頭說， “國家安全局/中央警衛人員。 ”主任和一貫的跡象他的名字“國安局主任/行政的CSS 。 ”

The National Security Agency is largely civilians, and they’re mostly the analysts and the people who design the sophisticated satellites and do a lot of the technical development work and break a lot of the codes and so forth.美國國家安全局主要是平民，他們大多是分析師和人民誰設計的先進的衛星和做了很多的技術開發工作，並打破了很多的代碼，等等。 And the people on the front lines, the intercept operators, are almost all military, and some civilians who transition from the military into a private contractor, for example.和人民的最前線，攔截運營商，幾乎所有軍事人員，以及一些平民誰轉型從軍事到私人承包商，例如。 So, most of those are the military, but they all come under the same organization.所以，大多數人是軍事人員，但他們都屬於同一組織。 The military is technically the Central Security Service, which reports to the director of NSA, and the civilians are largely NSA analysts and so forth.軍事技術上是中央警衛人員，其中向國家安全局局長，和平民大多分析師和消極安全保證等等。 So it’s the same organization.所以，同樣的組織。 Adrienne Kinne, for example, she showed me her certificate that she received when she was there.阿德里安娜克Kinne ，例如，她給我看了她的證書，她收到當她在那裡。 In a big print at the top, it said “National Security Agency,” and it was an award of achievement for the good work she did while she was there on this NSA mission called Operation Highlander.在一個大平面上方，它說： “國家安全局” ，這是一個成就獎的良好工作的同時，她也有她對這個所謂的國家安全局的任務運行的Highlander 。

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to James Bamford, investigative journalist, author of three books now on the National Security Agency, his last out today, The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.澱粉良：我們正在談論詹姆斯班福德，調查記者，作家的三本書現在國家安全局，他最後一次了今天，工廠的影子：超秘密國家安全局從9 / 11的竊聽美國。 We’re spending the hour with him.我們正在花時間與他。 When we come back from break, just what is the NSA?當我們回來休息，只是什麼是國家安全局？ And then we’ll talk about what happened in the lead-up to 9/11 and beyond.然後我們會談論發生在領導行動的9 / 11及以後。 Stay with us.和我們在一起。

Have Your Say: Democracy Now Follows Up on NSA’s Illegal Spying and War Crimes 你說：民主現在採取行動，國家安全局非法竊聽罪和戰爭罪
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Democracy Now Follows Up on NSA’s Illegal Spying and War Crimes民主現在採取行動，國家安全局非法竊聽罪和戰爭罪