民主现在采取行动，国家安全局非法窃听罪和战争罪

Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 星期二， 2008年10月14日

Democracy Now!现在的民主！ today not only admitted that I had broken the story but followed up on the story of illegal NSA spying, including the evidence of war crimes.今天不仅承认，我已破碎的故事，但后续的故事非法国内窃听项目，包括证据的战争罪行。

Link to original链接到原始 . 。

James Bamford: “The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.”詹姆斯班福德： “影子工厂：超秘密国家安全局从9 / 11的窃听美国。 ”

The Bush administration’s wiretapping program has come under new scrutiny this week.布什政府的窃听计划已经根据新的检查这个星期。 Two influential congressional committees have opened probes into allegations US intelligence spied on the phone calls of American military personnel, journalists and aid workers in Iraq.两个有影响力的国会委员会已经开始探讨指控美国情报刺探电话的美国军事人员，记者和救援人员在伊拉克。 We speak to James Bamford about the NSA’s spying on Americans, the agency’s failings pre-9/11 and the ties between NSA and the nation’s telecommunications companies.我们谈到詹姆斯班福德的国家安全局的间谍活动的美国人，该机构的失误pre-9/11和关系国家安全局和国家的电信公司。 [includes rush transcript–partial] [包括匆忙全文偏]

James Bamford, investigative reporter who has been covering the National Security Agency for the last three decades.詹姆斯班福德，调查记者，谁已涉及美国国家安全局在过去的三十年。 He came close to standing trial after revealing the NSA’s operations in his explosive 1982 book The Puzzle Palace.他差一点接受审判后，揭示了国家安全局的行动在他的书中爆炸性的1982年故宫的困惑。 His latest book, which comes out today, is the third in his trilogy on the NSA.他的最新著作，这是今天，是第三个在他的三部曲中的消极安全保证。 It’s called The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.它叫做影子工厂：超秘密国家安全局从9 / 11的窃听美国。

This transcript is available free of charge.本记录是免费提供的。 However, donations help us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our TV broadcast.然而，捐款帮助我们提供字幕聋人和听力困难在我们的电视节目。 Thank you for your generous contribution.谢谢你的慷慨捐助。
Donate - $25, $50, $100, More…捐赠-2 5美元， 5 0美元， 1 00美元，更多. ..
Related Links相关链接

* AfterDowningStreet.com Coverage of NSA Spying AfterDowningStreet.com覆盖国内窃听

Related Democracy Now!现在相关的民主！ Stories故事

* DEMOCRACY NOW! *民主从速！ EXCLUSIVE: Fmr.独家： Fmr 。 Military Intelligence Sgt.军事情报军士。 Reveals US Listed Palestine Hotel in Baghdad as Target Prior to Killing of Two Journalists in 2003 (5/13/2008)揭示美国上市巴勒斯坦饭店在巴格达的目标之前，杀害两名记者在2003年（ 08年5月13号）

AMY GOODMAN: The Bush administration’s wiretapping program has come under new scrutiny this week.淀粉古德曼：布什政府的窃听计划已经根据新的检查这个星期。 Two influential congressional committees have opened probes into allegations US intelligence spied on the phone calls of American military personnel, journalists and aid workers in Iraq.两个有影响力的国会委员会已经开始探讨指控美国情报刺探电话的美国军事人员，记者和救援人员在伊拉克。 Senator Patrick Leahy and Senator Arlen Specter of the Senate Judiciary Committee and Senator Jay Rockefeller, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, say they want Congress to look into allegations from two former military intelligence officials.参议员莱希和参议员斯佩克特美国参议院司法委员会和参议员洛克菲勒，椅子的参议院情报委员会说，他们希望美国国会考虑指控两名前军事情报官员。

The two whistleblowers—Adrienne Kinne, an Army reservist, and David Murfee Faulk, a Navy linguist—spoke last Thursday to ABC News.这两个举报人，阿德里安娜克Kinne ，陆军预备役和大卫Murfee Faulk ，海军语言学家，上周四以向ABC新闻。 While the network claimed that marked the first time the two whistleblowers had come forward, they had both spoken out well before last week.虽然网络声称，标志着首次有两名举报人挺身而出，他们都谈到了远在上周。

Blogger David Swanson wrote about them as early as July 2007, and in her first broadcast interview five months ago, former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, detailed the spying on Democracy Now! Blogger的大卫斯万森写他们早在2007年7月，和她第一次广播采访5个月前，前军事情报警长阿德里安娜克Kinne ，详细介绍了关于民主间谍现在！ back in May.早在5月。

ADRIENNE KINNE: I was stationed at Fort Gordon, Georgia, and I was actually mobilized shortly after 9/11 with a group of reservists who were eventually sent to Fort Gordon to work a mission, that it was actually a brand new mission.阿德里安娜克KINNE ：我是驻扎在戈登堡，格鲁吉亚，我实际上是动员后不久， 9 / 11的一组预备役谁最终被送往戈登堡的工作任务，它实际上是一个全新的使命。 It was something not like anything I had done in military intelligence previously.这是一些不喜欢什么我做了在以前的军事情报。 And this new mission involved the intercept of satellite phone communications in Iraq and Afghanistan and basically a huge swath of the region around those two countries.这一新的任务涉及到拦截的卫星电话通讯在伊拉克和阿富汗的基本上是一个巨大的条带的周围地区这两个国家。 It was really brand new, and basically there were about twenty of us who were put in charge of this new mission, to stand it up.这是真正全新的，基本上大约有21对我们提出了谁负责这一新的使命，站在了。

In the very beginning, basically what we did was that we would have a front end, which intercepted satellite phone communications in that region, and then it would transmit the satellite phone conversations back to the United States, where it would just fill up this queue in our computer, and we would just go through.在一开始，基本上我们应做的事是，我们将有一个前端，其中拦截卫星电话通讯在该区域，然后将转交卫星电话交谈回到美国，在那里它只是填补了这一队列在我们的电脑，我们只想通过。 And all the numbers were unidentified.和所有的人数不明。 So, at the beginning, it was just a matter of sifting through thousands upon thousands of unidentified satellite phone communications, as we kind of tried to sort out what phone number belonged to who and kind of go through the process of identifying phone numbers in the search for intelligence that might be related to operations in Afghanistan and, later on, Iraq.所以，开始时，它只是一个时间的问题筛选成千上万的身份不明的卫星电话通信，因为我们那种试图理清什么电话号码属于谁和一种经过查明电话号码的搜索的情报，可能与在阿富汗的行动，以及后来的伊拉克。

AMY GOODMAN: And when were you listening to Iraq?淀粉良：当你收听到伊拉克？

ADRIENNE KINNE: We started listening to the entire region pretty much immediately.阿德里安娜克KINNE ：我们开始听整个地区几乎立即。 I think this was December of 2001.我认为这是2001年12月。 And I was mobilized from October 2001 through August of 2003.我动员2001年10月通过2003年8月。 So I was working that mission pretty much from December through August of 2003.所以我的工作任务相当从12月通过2003年8月。

And over the course of my time, as we slowly began to identify phone numbers and who belonged to what, one thing that gave me grave concern was that as we identified phone numbers, we started to find more and more and more numbers that belonged not to any organizations affiliated with terrorism or with military—with militaries of Iraq or Afghanistan or elsewhere, but with humanitarian aid organizations, non-governmental organizations, who include the International Red Cross, Red Crescent, Doctors Without Borders, a whole host of humanitarian aid organizations.并在课程的时间，我们慢慢开始确定的电话号码，谁属于什么，有一件事，让我严重关切的是，我们确定了电话号码，我们开始找到更多的和越来越多的数字，不属于任何组织与恐怖主义有联系或与军队与军队的伊拉克或阿富汗或其他地方，但与人道主义援助组织，非政府组织，谁包括国际红十字会，红新月会，无国界医生组织，一系列的人道主义援助组织。 And it also included journalists.它也包括记者。

AMY GOODMAN: Former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, speaking on Democracy Now!淀粉古德曼：前军事情报警长阿德里安娜克Kinne ，讲民主现在！ in May. 5 。 She and Navy linguist, David Murfee Faulk, were also interviewed for a new book on the National Security Agency by James Bamford, an investigative journalist and author of two earlier books on the agency.她和海军的语言学家，大卫Murfee Faulk ，还采访了一本新书，关于国家安全局詹姆斯班福德，一个调查记者和作家的前两次书籍的机构。 Bamford is among the plaintiffs in a suit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of journalists, academics, aid workers and lawyers who feared they were targeted by government spying.班福德是在原告起诉的美国公民自由联盟代表记者，学者，援助工作者和律师谁害怕他们有针对性的由政府从事间谍活动。 A federal appeals court dismissed the case last year after ruling the plaintiffs can’t prove they were monitored.联邦上诉法院驳回此案后，去年裁决原告不能证明他们进行了监测。 The ACLU might reopen the suit to include the new revelations by Kinne and Faulk.美国公民自由联盟可能重新适应，包括新披露的Kinne和Faulk 。

James Bamford has been covering the National Security Agency for the last three decades.詹姆斯班福德已涉及美国国家安全局在过去的三十年。 He came close to standing trial after revealing the NSA’s operations in his explosive 1982 book The Puzzle Palace.他差一点接受审判后，揭示了国家安全局的行动在他的书中爆炸性的1982年故宫的困惑。 His latest book, which comes out today, is the third in his trilogy on the NSA.他的最新著作，这是今天，是第三个在他的三部曲中的消极安全保证。 It’s called The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.它叫做影子工厂：超秘密国家安全局从9 / 11的窃听美国。 Today, we spend the hour with James Bamford.今天，我们度过小时，詹姆斯班福德。 He joins us from Washington, DC他同我们从华盛顿特区

Welcome to Democracy Now!欢迎民主现在！

JAMES BAMFORD: Thanks, Amy.詹姆斯班福德：谢谢，艾米。 I appreciate it.我欣赏它。

AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us.淀粉良：很高兴有您的光临。 Well, let’s talk about Adrienne Kinne’s allegations, spying on Americans and international aid workers in Iraq.那么，让我们谈论艾德里安Kinne的指控，从事间谍活动的美国人和国际援助人员在伊拉克。 What’s wrong with this?有什么不好呢？

JAMES BAMFORD: Well, there’sa lot of things wrong with it.詹姆斯班福德：嗯，有很多事情错误的。 First of all, they’re wasting their time, when they should be spying on or trying to intercept communications to and from terrorists.首先，他们是浪费时间，当他们应该从事间谍活动或试图拦截通信和恐怖分子。 That was one of the complaints that Adrienne had and also Murfee Faulk had, that they didn’t join the military to listen to Americans doing pillow talk, because a lot of this was intimate conversations between Americans and their spouses back in the United States.这是一个投诉，阿德里安娜克了，也Murfee Faulk了，他们没有参加军事听美国人做枕头说话，因为很多，这是亲密交谈美国人和他们的配偶回到美国。 They’ve been separated a long time, and you can imagine what a lot of those conversations dealt with.他们已经分开很长一段时间，你可以想像了很多人的谈话处理。 They were very personal matters dealing with finance, affection, and so forth.他们非常个人事项处理财务，感情，等等。 So they felt that they were morally wrong by eavesdropping on these people and then just wasting government money and wasting their time by listening to things that had nothing to do with the war on terrorism.因此，他们认为他们是道义上是错误的窃听这些人，然后政府只是浪费金钱和浪费时间听的东西没有什么关系对恐怖主义的战争。

AMY GOODMAN: You know, it’s interesting.淀粉良：你知道，这很有趣。 One of the things Adrienne Kinne told us was that she was spying on journalists at the Palestine Hotel.的事情之一阿德里安娜克Kinne告诉我们，她是从事间谍活动的记者在巴勒斯坦饭店。 She knew they were journalists.她知道他们是记者。 She heard what they were saying over time.她听到他们说随着时间的推移。 Here she was in Georgia, but spying on those people, those journalists, in Iraq.在这里，她在格鲁吉亚，但从事间谍活动的那些人，那些记者，在伊拉克。 And she said she saw a document, she saw an email that put the Palestine Hotel on a—as a bombing target, and she immediately went to her superiors, because she was spying on them, she knew that they were journalists.她说她看到了一份文件，她看到一封电子邮件，把巴勒斯坦饭店的，作为轰炸目标，她立刻前往她的上司，因为她是从事间谍活动上，她知道他们是记者。 She said, “But there are journalists in that hotel.” She learned a lot in this spying.她说， “但是，记者在该酒店。 ”她学到了很多东西，在此从事间谍活动。 Is this illegal?这是非法的？

JAMES BAMFORD: Well, you know, it would have been illegal under the old original Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.詹姆斯班福德：那么，你知道，那将是非法的旧的原始外国情报监视法案。 The way they’ve sort of contorted the new amendments to the act, it’s hard to tell what’s legal and what isn’t, because they’ve taken the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court largely out of the mix.他们的道路已经某种扭曲的新修订的行为，很难说有什么法律，什么是不会，因为他们已经采取了外国情报监视法庭的主要组合。 And so, much of what is being done is governed by secret rules known as USSID 18, United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18, which is above top-secret.因此，大部分正在做的工作是由秘密的规则被称为USSID 18日，美国的信号情报指令18日，这首先是绝密。 It’s top-secret code words.这是绝密的代码的话。 So what is legal, what isn’t legal, it’s very hard to tell.什么是合法的，什么是不合法的，很难说。

And I think that’s why you really need a congressional committee to really take a look at this.我想这就是为什么你真的需要一个国会委员会，真正来看看这个。 What really needs to happen is a very in-depth examination of NSA post/11—actually, pre-9/11 and post-9/11, the kind that was done in the mid-1970s by Senator Frank Church, the Church Committee.真正需要的是什么发生是一个非常深入审查国安局post/11-actually ， pre-9/11和911 ，那种是在20世纪70年代中期由参议员弗兰克教会，教会委员会。 I think that’s really the only way to get to the bottom of whether NSA messed up before the attacks on 9/11 and whether they’re doing things that are illegal or improper after 9/11.我认为这是真正的唯一途径获得的底部是否国安局搞砸之前，攻击9 / 11 ，以及他们是否正在做的事情是非法或不当后， 9 / 11 。

AMY GOODMAN: What other allegations did the Navy linguist David Murfee Faulk make about what he was listening to in Iraq?淀粉良：什么其他指控没有海军语言学家大卫Murfee Faulk什么让他听在伊拉克？

JAMES BAMFORD: Well, he confirmed a lot of what Adrienne was saying.詹姆斯班福德：嗯，他证实了很多什么阿德里安说。 And it’s interesting, because they cover such different times there.这很有趣，因为他们支付这些不同时期存在。 Adrienne was there from 2001 to August of 2003.阿德里安是从2001年8月， 2003年。 David Faulk was there from November of 2003 until November of 2007.大卫Faulk是从2003年11月至2007年11月。 So you have this time period covered from 2001 to 2007.所以，你有时间涵盖2001年至2007年。 And they were both doing similar things.和他们两个人做类似的事情。 They had never met each other.他们从来没有见过对方。 So these are very independent views of what was going on over there.因此，这些都是非常独立的看法发生了什么事情就在那边。 And so, you have this continuum from 2001 to 2007 of eavesdropping on Americans.因此，你有这个统一体2001至2007年的窃听美国人。

One of the things that David Murfee Faulk brought up was the fact that not only were they eavesdropping on a lot of these conversations, some of which were very intimate, but they would have sort of locker room chats about what they were hearing, and they would post—or they would notify their co-workers that you should listen to this, what they call “cut,” their conversations.的事情之一就是大卫Murfee Faulk长大的事实是他们不但窃听很多这样的谈话，其中有些是非常亲密的，但他们将某种更衣室聊天什么他们听，他们会后，否则将通知他们的同事，你应该倾听这一点，他们所谓的“禁” ，他们的谈话。 You should listen to this conversation or that conversation.你应该听这次谈话，或谈话。 They’d laugh about it.他们想笑了。 And, you know, I don’t really think that’s what the soldiers over there that are fighting really appreciate, the fact that you have Americans back in the state of Georgia laughing over their intimate conversations.而且，你知道，我真的不认为这是士兵在那里的战斗非常感谢，事实上，你已经在美国乔治亚州笑着对自己亲密的交谈。

So, the other thing that David Murfee Faulk brought up that I thought was very important and really gave a good insight into what—how some of this activity that’s taking place in Iraq comes about, you know, when they’re dropping bombs on houses and neighborhoods and busting down doors and putting people into Abu Ghraib and so forth, how does that come about?因此，其他的事情大卫Murfee Faulk长大，我认为是非常重要的，真正给一个很好的了解什么，怎样一些这方面的活动是在伊拉克发生了约，你知道，当他们正在下降炸弹对房屋和街道和破坏大门，正派人进入阿布格莱布等等，请问这是什么？ Why do they bust down this door or drop a bomb on that house?他们为什么破灭了这个门或投弹就这个房子吗？ And the insight he gave, I thought was very interesting.敏锐的洞察力和他，我觉得非常有趣。 He was saying how it’s these people here that are sitting in this windowless room in the state of Georgia, near Augusta, Georgia, that are listening to these conversations in Iraq, in Baghdad, and they’re making instantaneous decisions on whether somebody is telling the truth or not.他是怎么说的这些人在这里是坐在这个没有窗户的房间在乔治亚州，奥古斯塔附近，格鲁吉亚，是听这些谈话在伊拉克，在巴格达，他们正使瞬时决定是否有人是讲真话与否。 So they’re writing out these—they’re doing these transcripts, and then they’re writing these little comments saying this person here, Ali, is saying he’s going to deliver a load of melons to his cousin Mohammed tomorrow.因此他们就写了这些， they're做这些笔录，然后他们写这些小评论说此人在这里，阿里，是说他要提供一个负荷的瓜果，以他的堂兄弟穆罕默德的明天。 And then you have somebody making a decision: is he telling the truth, or isn’t he?然后您已有人作出决定：是他说真话，或不是吗？ Are these melons, or possibly could they be IEDs?这些瓜果，或他们可能会被简易爆炸装置？ And if a person says, “You know, I don’t think he’s telling the truth,” there’sa good chance that that house could be blown up or that person could be put in Abu Ghraib, or whatever.如果一个人说： “你知道，我不认为他的讲真话” ，有很好的机会，这房子可能会被炸毁或该人可在阿布格莱布，或者别的什么东西。

And the point that David Mufee Faulk was making was that the people that are making these decisions, these sometimes life-and-death decisions, don’t have the proper training.并指出，大卫Mufee Faulk正在被人民所作出这些决定，这些有时是生死攸关的决定，没有适当的训练。 They’re trained for sixty-three weeks in Monterey, California in standard Arabic.他们是训练有素的六十三周，加利福尼亚州蒙特里的标准阿拉伯语。 And what they’re listening to a lot of times is dialects that they don’t really understand, and they’re listening for nuances that they don’t really get, and idioms and so forth.和他们是怎么听很多时候是方言，他们不明白，他们正在聆听的细微差别，他们并不真正得到的，和成语等等。 And I think it’s very dangerous, and what the point he was making was it was very dangerous for—you know, sometimes these are just people right out of high school to—that have never been out of the country, and certainly never been over to the Middle East, to make these sort of life-and-death decisions based on just hearing one conversation out of context.我认为这是非常危险的，什么点，他决策是非常危险的，你知道，有时这些只是人民权利的高中生到这从来没有离开该国，而且肯定不会一直到中东，以使这类生死攸关的基础上作出决定聆讯只是一个谈话的背景。

AMY GOODMAN: And they’re doing this from Fort Gordon, Georgia.淀粉良：他们这样做的戈登堡，格鲁吉亚。 Are they working for the NSA, the National Security Agency?他们工作的国家安全局，美国国家安全局？

JAMES BAMFORD: Yes.詹姆斯班福德：是的。 The way this works—a lot of people don’t really understand how this whole system works—the NSA is sort of two organizations in one; the director of NSA wears two hats.这一方式的作品，很多人并不真正了解这整个系统的运作，国家安全局是那种两个组织之一的国家安全局局长戴两个帽子。 If you ever get a letter from NSA or whatever, it says—the letterhead says, “National Security Agency/Central Security Service.” And the director always signs his name “Director NSA/Chief CSS.”如果你有机会的信或任何消极安全保证，它说，抬头说， “国家安全局/中央警卫人员。 ”主任和一贯的迹象他的名字“国安局主任/行政的CSS 。 ”

The National Security Agency is largely civilians, and they’re mostly the analysts and the people who design the sophisticated satellites and do a lot of the technical development work and break a lot of the codes and so forth.美国国家安全局主要是平民，他们大多是分析师和人民谁设计的先进的卫星和做了很多的技术开发工作，并打破了很多的代码，等等。 And the people on the front lines, the intercept operators, are almost all military, and some civilians who transition from the military into a private contractor, for example.和人民的最前线，拦截运营商，几乎所有军事人员，以及一些平民谁转型从军事到私人承包商，例如。 So, most of those are the military, but they all come under the same organization.所以，大多数人是军事人员，但他们都属于同一组织。 The military is technically the Central Security Service, which reports to the director of NSA, and the civilians are largely NSA analysts and so forth.军事技术上是中央警卫人员，其中向国家安全局局长，和平民大多分析师和消极安全保证等等。 So it’s the same organization.所以，同样的组织。 Adrienne Kinne, for example, she showed me her certificate that she received when she was there.阿德里安娜克Kinne ，例如，她给我看了她的证书，她收到当她在那里。 In a big print at the top, it said “National Security Agency,” and it was an award of achievement for the good work she did while she was there on this NSA mission called Operation Highlander.在一个大平面上方，它说： “国家安全局” ，这是一个成就奖的良好工作的同时，她也有她对这个所谓的国家安全局的任务运行的Highlander 。

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to James Bamford, investigative journalist, author of three books now on the National Security Agency, his last out today, The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America.淀粉良：我们正在谈论詹姆斯班福德，调查记者，作家的三本书现在国家安全局，他最后一次了今天，工厂的影子：超秘密国家安全局从9 / 11的窃听美国。 We’re spending the hour with him.我们正在花时间与他。 When we come back from break, just what is the NSA?当我们回来休息，只是什么是国家安全局？ And then we’ll talk about what happened in the lead-up to 9/11 and beyond.然后我们会谈论发生在领导行动的9 / 11及以后。 Stay with us.和我们在一起。

Have Your Say: Democracy Now Follows Up on NSA’s Illegal Spying and War Crimes 你说：民主现在采取行动，国家安全局非法窃听罪和战争罪
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Democracy Now Follows Up on NSA’s Illegal Spying and War Crimes民主现在采取行动，国家安全局非法窃听罪和战争罪